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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Ultimately, I2a2 is definitely east-central European (S Germany <-> Ukraine), from the LUP perspective
    W.r.t. I2a2a1b, we have I2a2a1b2 in the GAC, but also La Mina (3800 BC) and probably other places yet to be published in western Europe Neolithic - Copper Age
    I2a2a1b1, on the other hand, is solidly "Carpatho-Pontic". It is found in Neolithic Bulgaria, Neolithic & Copper Age Hungary, "Neolithic" (genetically "SHG") Dereivka, Yamnaya (Ulan IV, Bulgaria) and Bulgarian Bronze Age (Ezero culture).
    I'm not sure what it means, but it looks like all of the Ukraine Neolithic samples that are I2a2a1b1 are on the Dnieper River. The lone I2a2a1b1 Yamnaya sample is even further east of the Dnieper.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

  2. #4332
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Back to basics: P312 appears to have been branching for perhaps 400-500 years before Central European bell beaker culture existed and it did not come from the early Iberian beaker makers. So looking at the section of the P312 tree that covers the first 500 years only would be a good start. Can anyone produce that graphic? I am useless at that sort of thing. What does the tree of the pre-beaker phase of P312 from 3000-2500BC tell us?
    This may help http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...p312/tree.html
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    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

  3. #4333
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    There seems to be a consensus that the P312 SNP is nearer 5000 years old than 4500 years old. Right? And tmrca of P312is 400ys younger? Kind of like yfull dates but add a couple of centuries? https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
    Last edited by alan; 09-13-2017 at 06:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    There seems to be a consensus that the P312 SNP is nearer 5000 years old than 4500 years old. Right? And tmrca of P312is 400ys younger? Kind of like yfull dates but add a couple of centuries? https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
    According to Iain McDonald's latest Big Y analysis of P312 results, the age with 95% Confidence Interval: P312 3155 BC (3898 BC — 2568 BC)
    See http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...312/table.html for complete listing of P312 clades and especially his explanatory notes.

    This would support P312 being roughly 5000 years old.
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
    Gedmatch Genesis: WH4547538
    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing Genealogist View Post
    According to Iain McDonald's latest Big Y analysis of P312 results, the age with 95% Confidence Interval: P312 3155 BC (3898 BC — 2568 BC)
    See http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...312/table.html for complete listing of P312 clades and especially his explanatory notes.

    This would support P312 being roughly 5000 years old.
    Yes a number of archaeological-geographical associations suggest that yfull dates seem a couple of centuries too young. What about the 400yr gap between the P312 formation and the tmrca date? What is the basis of that?

  6. #4336
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Yes a number of archaeological-geographical associations suggest that yfull dates seem a couple of centuries too young. What about the 400yr gap between the P312 formation and the tmrca date? What is the basis of that?
    That's kind of funny to me because McDonald's age estimate for DF87/Z302 (first major subclade split of DF19, along with DF88) is 3,000 years younger than yfull's. I just emailed him a little while ago about that.

    Edit: He just replied. The discrepancy is due to insufficiently varied Z302 donor samples, and more results should bring it back in line.
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 09-13-2017 at 09:49 PM.
    R1b (aka M343) > M269 > L23 > L51 > L11 > P312 > DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 > Z17112 (S17075-, L644-)

    Archaeological cousin: 6DRIF-23 of Driffield Terrace Roman Cemetery, York (Z17112+, S17075+, L644-)

    Known ancestors: Francis Cooke (I-M223/I2a2a) b. 1583; John Wing (U106) b. 1584; Richard Warren (M269Hidden Content ) b.c. 1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b. 1583; John Mead b.c. 1634 (I2a1/P37.2)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing Genealogist View Post
    According to Iain McDonald's latest Big Y analysis of P312 results, the age with 95% Confidence Interval: P312 3155 BC (3898 BC — 2568 BC)
    See http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...312/table.html for complete listing of P312 clades and especially his explanatory notes.

    This would support P312 being roughly 5000 years old.
    Absolute dates will be argued about for a long time to come but there is one thing that stands out as solid. P312 derivatives like DF13, L2 etc are proven to be linked with non Iberian beaker from its inception but their P312 shared mrca is centuries earlier. Given that their most recent shared ancestor is several centuries pre-beaker then how on earth did they all come to be so closely linked to beaker centuries later?

    There are only two likely explanations imho:

    1. All P312 decendants remained in a compact area for several centuries until they adopted the beaker.

    2. A beaker type trade network without the beakers was set up by the grandkids/g grandkids of Mr P312 in central europe around 2900-2800BC. This led to at least part of the P312 subclades geography being in place before beakers were adopted. The subsequent spread of the beaker and other shared traits and innovations through all the P312 people was due to them already forming a network through which they were linked.

    I favour the latter option. Beaker metallurgy in central European differed little from what proceeded it in CW and other cultures and it seems to me that someone likely performed the same trader-metallurgist role before beakers were adopted. My guess is it was a network of P312 clans. We know that the bones of one central European beaker man clearly showed evidence of a life on horseback. My guess is P312 controlled traderoutes/rivers leading north from the north Carpathians, the Upper Danube, the Rhine etc for at least 200 years before the beaker was adopted. Who knows, they may have occasionally seasonally extended in an archaeologically nearly invisible way further west using the Grand Pressigny trade route or the Rhone like a variant of Jean's stelae people- perhaps enough contact to pass wives with the central European model of the beaker to non P312 Iberians .
    Last edited by alan; 09-13-2017 at 09:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Absolute dates will be argued about for a long time to come but there is one thing that stands out as solid. P312 derivatives like DF13, L2 etc are proven to be linked with non Iberian beaker from its inception but their P312 shared mrca is centuries earlier. Given that their most recent shared ancestor is several centuries pre-beaker then how on earth did they all come to be so closely linked to beaker centuries later?
    ....
    I wouldn't rely too much on precision in dating, at least from the genetic age estimates. They could easily be off several hundred years. I think the only anchors we have for R1b-P312 are the RC dated aDNA amongst early Bell Beaker remains. I know we have U152 very early but that might only be a generation or two away from the P312 MRCA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I wouldn't rely too much on precision in dating, at least from the genetic age estimates. They could easily be off several hundred years. I think the only anchors we have for R1b-P312 are the RC dated aDNA amongst early Bell Beaker remains. I know we have U152 very early but that might only be a generation or two away from the P312 MRCA.
    We've discussed this before so I won't beat the dead horse...too much. If a U152 descendant, RISE563 lived ~2542 BC, we need to account for all the mutations that occurred...even if they weren't in the combBED region e.g. Z40481, Z38841, ZZ11 and possibly Z1904 CTS12684 PF6548. I'm not talking about SNP dating calculations, but rather a minimum number of conception events...plus we don't know how many generations there were between RISE563 and the original U152 carrier.

    Based on the above I think it's safe to assume P312 would be no younger than 2750 BC.
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Yes a number of archaeological-geographical associations suggest that yfull dates seem a couple of centuries too young. What about the 400yr gap between the P312 formation and the tmrca date? What is the basis of that?
    I've returned to bring my calming influence to this thread.

    The 400 year estimated gap between P312's formation date and its TMRCA is statistically insignificant, and might not have been a gap at all. Far more significant is the 1,100 year gap between L151 arising and its first surviving branches forming. What caused all the earliest branches of L151 to die out before several of them started thriving at roughly the same time?

    If we want to examine the root of P312, we need to look at the other branches that shot out of the same root at pretty much the same time - A8039, A8051, S1200 and U106, but these, for the most part, are ignored.

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