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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4311
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    I have been very impressed by the debates. You would think we had all chewed this over to death but the convo keeps coming up with new angles and is though provoking
    Last edited by alan; 09-12-2017 at 06:46 PM.

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  3. #4312
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    However, you cannot state I2-M223 is a "Steppe" marker in itself, because it has been found in Neolithic Iberia and within a general European mesolithic context. Similarly we cannot say L51+ arose on the steppe, nor can we say L23+ is a mesolithic marker until it turns up in that period.

    I don't see where you're going with this. Some subclades under I2-M223 probably spread in the Bronze age with the R1b guys from the steppes. Do I need a formal paper to show this association?
    but from what i have seen the R1b'ers were already present in the chalcolithic(bell beaker) whereas in unetice I2a2b emerges and by the archaeo record bronze-age unetice derives from eastern beaker; i do think that I2a2b is a special case and does not yet (data) show the geo/nor chron range of I2a2a, in that it might than be in-situ IEized farmers;
    Geno2.0NextGeneration 51%SouthernEurope 19%Western&CentralEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EasternEurope 4%GreatBritain&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%West&CentralEurope 40%SoutheastEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WestMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NorthwestEuropean 27%SouthEuropean 13%MediterraneanIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%North&WestEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 48%[49%]Northern&CentralEurope 42%[36%]SouthwesternEurope 4%NortheastEurope 7%[15%]EasternMediterranean

  4. #4313
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    but from what i have seen the R1b'ers were already present in the chalcolithic(bell beaker) whereas in unetice I2a2b emerges and by the archaeo record bronze-age unetice derives from eastern beaker; i do think that I2a2b is a special case and does not yet (data) show the geo/nor chron range of I2a2a, in that it might than be in-situ IEized farmers;
    That is a strange finding because in a cultural sense the beaker roots of unetice is pretty clear.

  5. #4314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    so your inferences on based on the modern DNA of a region you have little knowledge of is also irrelvant
    Then you claimed that the prevalence of R1b in SEE is 20%, and it came with IEs
    Still waiting for you in-depth sub-clade analysis because your personal opinion isn't something. I'd take verbatim.
    Excerpt from the 2016 Cyprus study : Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements Voskarides et al. 2016

    Overall, haplogroup R1 presence was 15.1 %. The total frequency of associated R1a-M449 and R1b-M415 sub-haplogroups was 4.5 % and 10.7 %, respectively. The paragroup R1b-M269*(xL23) lineage is present (2.5 %). Furthermore sub-branches reflecting distinctive European versus Asian divergences similarly occur in both R1a and R1b. Within R1b, the central/west Europe M412 constituent (2.2 %) is offset by the western/central/south Asia Z2105 fraction (5.4 %) that was previously reported as paragroup L23*(xM412) [56]. Similarly in R1a, both the European Z282 component (3.0 %) and the counterpart Asian Z93 clade (1.1 %) occur.


    I'm not sure if you're expecting me to highlight which IE speakers came from where with pinpoint accuracy? Someone with no funding, no formal education or training in the field, and with no samples at my disposal? Have any people holding a PhD in the field even come close to what you are proposing I do?

    Another study supporting what I just mentioned. n=25 of the R1b have 393=12 vs n=16 have 393 != 12. Since 13 is not always an indicator of L51+, a chunk could be V88, L389, or L23+ &L51-.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474

    Another on Greek speaking provinces of Turkey: R1b is n=23 (of 89), 9 are DYS393=12, and 6 of 14 match the 11-11 modal, leaving at most 8 as L51. This number could be even smaller.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/

    So I guess you can criticize me because I don't have the funding to exhume skeletons that may or may not be in existence, but I think we can infer some data based on modern results and the ancient results we do have. Otherwise, this is all for nothing.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

  6. #4315
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    Beaker genetics does look to me that they had a prior existence in the east-Central Europe north of the Carpathians in a zone where they mixed a bit with native farmers while CW looks like there was a big chunk who went directly from steppe east of the Dnieper to the Baltic. I don't trust building a model of CW spread on RC dates when there is only a century between oldest and typical dates. Fir instance the dates for CW in Ukraine are not as old as Poland etc but I think that either is deceiving us or the current model is failing to distinguish between a cultural fusion zone and an eastern branch of it is a which stayed pure steppe and became the dominant genetic group spreading the culture

  7. #4316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    The Yamnaya Bulgaria lineage, Ulan IV and Ezero culture are i2a2a1b. I view this to be a Mesolithic lineage 'native' to a band of region from north Black sea to east-central Europe, incl northern Balkans (danube river). By 6000 BC it appears in Neolithic contexts (Bulgaria, Hungary) and those which are still not-ANF admixed (Mariupol, etc).
    This duality continues through the Copper Age and the Bronze Age (Yamnaya - Ezero). It speaks of a complex history and interaction in the region, individual mobility, exogamy; and mitigates any simplistic unilinear visions.
    The Iron Gates Hunter Gatherers appear to have been more frequently R1b1a and V88 at that, but I agree, there seems to have been an I2a2/R1b1a(xM269) presence on the Danube from the Mesolithic on through to the Copper Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    The GAC lineages is a distinct subset of I2a2. But it's important, now that you bring it up. Because all 3 Polish GAC and all 3 Ukrainian GAC belong to the same lineage (most likely).
    Mathieson's admixture grouping may not be all that correct, but it is fascinating that the GAC samples all lack Yamnaya ancestry when Copper Age Balkan groups have it. I suspect a very specific group of I2a2a1b men came from somewhere to the north-west... what do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    So we see that this strong 'patrilocality' is something peculiar to post-4500 BC northern Europe, not something exclusively 'Indo-European' (on the premise that GAC and Megalithic far north are not I.E. because they are simple mix of ANF/ WHG), but it was perhaps picked up by / native to those IEs from northern Europe.
    The Balkans is different. The answer must be social rather than demographic density, because, as Ive said, the Balkans was only densely populated in the "Neolithic golden years', not after.
    All of Southern Europe that practiced pastoralism during the Copper Age seems to have been less influenced by R-L51. This all seems to change with the Wrist Guard People (that's what I'm calling the steppe derived Bell Beaker men) during the Early Bronze Age.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

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  9. #4317
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    but from what i have seen the R1b'ers were already present in the chalcolithic(bell beaker) whereas in unetice I2a2b emerges and by the archaeo record bronze-age unetice derives from eastern beaker; i do think that I2a2b is a special case and does not yet (data) show the geo/nor chron range of I2a2a, in that it might than be in-situ IEized farmers;
    You're correct.
    The I2a2 in Iberia isn;t the same lineage as the one in Ukraine- Bulgaria, nor is it the same as the one in GAC.
    The appearance of I2c and I2a2b in Unetice makes perfect sense, because at least I2c was found in Neolithic Balkans and Copper Age Hungary. Heyd (as have several archaeologists before him) speaks of a palpable pulse of movement in the post-BB period from the Carpathian basin into Unetice-central Europe, marking the emergence of the true Bronze Age in central Europe.

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  11. #4318
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post


    Mathieson's admixture grouping may not be all that correct, but it is fascinating that the GAC samples all lack Yamnaya ancestry when Copper Age Balkan groups have it. I suspect a very specific group of I2a2a1b men came from somewhere to the north-west... what do you think?


    .
    Ultimately, I2a2 is definitely east-central European (S Germany <-> Ukraine), from the LUP perspective
    W.r.t. I2a2a1b, we have I2a2a1b2 in the GAC, but also La Mina (3800 BC) and probably other places yet to be published in western Europe Neolithic - Copper Age
    I2a2a1b1, on the other hand, is solidly "Carpatho-Pontic". It is found in Neolithic Bulgaria, Neolithic & Copper Age Hungary, "Neolithic" (genetically "SHG") Dereivka, Yamnaya (Ulan IV, Bulgaria) and Bulgarian Bronze Age (Ezero culture).

  12. #4319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    You're correct.
    The I2a2 in Iberia isn;t the same lineage as the one in Ukraine- Bulgaria, nor is it the same as the one in GAC.
    The appearance of I2c and I2a2b in Unetice makes perfect sense, because at least I2c was found in Neolithic Balkans and Copper Age Hungary. Heyd (as have several archaeologists before him) speaks of a palpable pulse of movement in the post-BB period from the Carpathian basin into Unetice-central Europe, marking the emergence of the true Bronze Age in central Europe.
    I2a2a1b does has a span from western points in Iberia(mina4 early4thmil) and scotland(I2650 late4thmil) to east Ilyatka/Ukraine GAC (early3rdmil), those by the looks of it all proper farmers; it might very well be that now in the bronze-age these I2c/I2a2b folks were the elites and could afford the burials attestable by modern archeology, yet their genome wide structure is still very akin to that of the beakers; one would expect an olalde et al continuity of R1b(east beakers) but in the current so far data it disappeared with the early 4th mil Protoboleraz I2c still being MN type farmers; i think this a complete network of dynamics, first (chalcolithic) confined to the balkans/carpathians and than spilled over into central europe (bronze-age);
    Geno2.0NextGeneration 51%SouthernEurope 19%Western&CentralEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EasternEurope 4%GreatBritain&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%West&CentralEurope 40%SoutheastEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WestMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NorthwestEuropean 27%SouthEuropean 13%MediterraneanIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%North&WestEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 48%[49%]Northern&CentralEurope 42%[36%]SouthwesternEurope 4%NortheastEurope 7%[15%]EasternMediterranean

  13. #4320
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Excerpt from the 2016 Cyprus study : Y-chromosome phylogeographic analysis of the Greek-Cypriot population reveals elements consistent with Neolithic and Bronze Age settlements Voskarides et al. 2016

    Overall, haplogroup R1 presence was 15.1 %. The total frequency of associated R1a-M449 and R1b-M415 sub-haplogroups was 4.5 % and 10.7 %, respectively. The paragroup R1b-M269*(xL23) lineage is present (2.5 %). Furthermore sub-branches reflecting distinctive European versus Asian divergences similarly occur in both R1a and R1b. Within R1b, the central/west Europe M412 constituent (2.2 %) is offset by the western/central/south Asia Z2105 fraction (5.4 %) that was previously reported as paragroup L23*(xM412) [56]. Similarly in R1a, both the European Z282 component (3.0 %) and the counterpart Asian Z93 clade (1.1 %) occur.


    I'm not sure if you're expecting me to highlight which IE speakers came from where with pinpoint accuracy? Someone with no funding, no formal education or training in the field, and with no samples at my disposal? Have any people holding a PhD in the field even come close to what you are proposing I do?

    Another study supporting what I just mentioned. n=25 of the R1b have 393=12 vs n=16 have 393 != 12. Since 13 is not always an indicator of L51+, a chunk could be V88, L389, or L23+ &L51-.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474

    Another on Greek speaking provinces of Turkey: R1b is n=23 (of 89), 9 are DYS393=12, and 6 of 14 match the 11-11 modal, leaving at most 8 as L51. This number could be even smaller.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/

    So I guess you can criticize me because I don't have the funding to exhume skeletons that may or may not be in existence, but I think we can infer some data based on modern results and the ancient results we do have. Otherwise, this is all for nothing.
    Sorry, I should not misapply to my frustration to you.

    It might be more worthwhile to stay in mainland Europe.
    A pretty decent Bulgarian study in 2013 (karachanuk et al).
    Overall frequency of R1b= 10.5

    5.2% was L23 (xM412). This will undoubtedly be Z2013, and the Z2110 branch at that.
    I have no doubt this relates to Yamnaya, but I wonder when it reached Greece ?

    The others are U106, xM269 (PF7563), etc


    Also worth looking at is the Myres study, which has decent coverage of Turkey, Crete and SEE, in addition rest of Europe.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 09-12-2017 at 09:53 PM.

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