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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4221
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    None of the Globular Amphora samples from Mathieson et al had any steppe dna, and none of them was R1 of any kind. Gimbutas believed there were some steppe elites in Globular Amphora, but if that is true, it's evidently going to take many more samples to find them.
    It might just take one more sample to find R1b - Mathieson didn't look at very many.

    Dereivka Sredny Stog had both I2a2a1b and R1b contemporaneously - if I2a2a1b didn't have Steppe DNA, did R1b Sredny Stog have it either?

    By Steppe DNA, do you mean South Asian admixture?

  2. #4222
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I2a2a1b was on the Steppe in the same Dnieper settlement with R1b in the mid-5th millennium. It also moved from the Steppe into Northern Germany during the mid-4th millennium with Globular Amphora. Would it have completely extricated itself from R1b living amongst it in doing this, or is it likely that R1b was also present to some degree within Globular Amphora?

    There is a first wave Steppe culture site at Chapli on the Upper Dniester, which is closely-linked to Dnieper sites. It is dated to approximately 4,000 BC (close to L151's formation date), and is near to where Globular Amphora is estimated to have originated only a few centuries later. Is this likely to be the cradle from which R1b-L151 emerged, later forming Bell Beaker on coming into contact with proto-Corded Ware R1a-M417 communities near the mouth of the Elbe?
    Proto-Corded Ware isn't from the mouth of the Elbe, it's from the steppe, because early Corded Ware is indistinguishable from Yamnaya from Samara.

    How hard is that to understand?

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  4. #4223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Proto-Corded Ware isn't from the mouth of the Elbe, it's from the steppe, because early Corded Ware is indistinguishable from Yamnaya from Samara.

    How hard is that to understand?
    I imagine if "early Corded Ware" were indistinguishable from Yamnaya, it would still be called Yamnaya.

    People on this forum have told me that the earliest Corded Ware sites are along the Baltic (Poland). They might be wrong, but even so I don't see any need to be rude about it.

    Do you have anything useful to contribute about my suggestion re- Chapli and Globular Amphora?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I imagine if "early Corded Ware" were indistinguishable from Yamnaya, it would still be called Yamnaya.
    Well those early Corded Ware individuals are indistinguishable from Yamnaya genetically and they're called Corded Ware. So that's that.

    Do you have anything useful to contribute about my suggestion re- Chapli and Globular Amphora?
    Yes, I have a suggestion for you: do some reading about genome-wide (autosomal) DNA before dazzling us with more of your theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Well those early Corded Ware individuals are indistinguishable from Yamnaya genetically and they're called Corded Ware. So that's that.
    Distinguishable geographically. Distinguishable culturally. Wholly different y-dna. 20-40% different a-DNA, depending on which measure you use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Yes, I have a suggestion for you: do some reading about genome-wide (autosomal) DNA before dazzling us with more of your theories.
    Personal abuse again that has nothing to do with the Chapli or GA matters that I raised.
    Does anyone have anything useful to contribute?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    20-40% different a-DNA, depending on which measure you use.
    Practically no different using all measures.

    That's the point I was making that you missed.

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  12. #4227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Well those early Corded Ware individuals are indistinguishable from Yamnaya genetically and they're called Corded Ware. So that's that.



    Yes, I have a suggestion for you: do some reading about genome-wide (autosomal) DNA before dazzling us with more of your theories.
    The whole point of CW is the cultural and genetic mixing with local Northern Europeans, just as the ethnogenesis of Yamnaya occurs with the mixing between EHGs and CHGs, otherwise we would still be calling Yamnaya people Khalvynsk .

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    Hey rms2; do you remember when you made fun of the idea of local Bell Beaker people taking Corded Ware wives and acquiring Steppe Admixture that way.

    Female exogamy and gene pool diversification at the transition from the Final Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in central Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Knipper.et.al.2017
    Human mobility has been vigorously debated as a key factor for the spread of bronze technology and profound changes in burial practices as well as material culture in central Europe at the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age. However, the relevance of individual residential changes and their importance among specific age and sex groups are still poorly understood. Here, we present ancient DNA analysis, stable isotope data of oxygen, and
    radiogenic isotope ratios of strontium for 84 radiocarbon-dated skeletons from seven archaeological sites of the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Complex and the Early Bronze Age from the Lech River valley in southern Bavaria, Germany. Complete mitochondrial genomes documented a diversification of maternal lineages over time. The isotope ratios disclosed the majority of the females to be nonlocal, while this is the case for only a few males and subadults. Most nonlocal females arrived in the study area as adults, but we do not detect their offspring among the sampled individuals. The striking patterns of patrilocality and female exogamy prevailed over at least 800 y between about 2500 and 1700 BC. The persisting residential rules and even a direct kinship relation across the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age add to the archaeological evidence of continuing traditions from the Bell Beaker Complex to the Early Bronze Age. The results also attest to female mobility as a driving force for regional and supraregional communication and exchange at the dawn of the European metal ages.

    Here is even more spelled out for you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Knipper.et.al.2017
    Patrilocal residential rules, kinship ties, female exogamy, and supraregional
    connections. The combination of Sr and O isotope data identified
    22 of 83 investigated individuals (26.5%) as nonlocal or temporarily
    living away from the Lech River valley during childhood.
    Among them were 17/28 (60.7%) females, 3/27 (11.1%) males,
    2/27 (7.4%) subadults, and 0/1 (0%) adult individuals of indeterminate
    sex (Dataset S1, Table 8). These individuals were
    distributed equally among the sites and burials of the BBC (5/18 =
    27.8%) and the EBA (17/65 = 26.2%). The numbers are minimum
    estimates because the local isotope ranges are not exclusive to the
    Lech River valley, and individuals with similar 87Sr/86Sr ratios of
    both sampled teeth may have moved undetectably between geologically
    similar landscapes.
    The high proportion of nonlocal females occurs at the same time
    as a high and increasing haplotype diversity, i.e., a high diversity of
    maternal lineages, and is consistent with a patrilocal residential
    system and female exogamy (39, 40). Predominantly nonlocal females
    were also found in BBC contexts in southern Bavaria (especially
    if 0.71050 is used as 87Sr/86Sr cutoff), Austria, Hungary, the
    Czech Republic (18), and Britain (21), among CWC burials in
    southern Germany (12), and EBA inhumations in central Germany
    (24), pointing to a supraregional prevalence of patrilocal residential
    rules. The pattern is, however, most striking in the Lech River valley

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  15. #4229
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    That report does not even come close to saying that BB men took CW wives and acquired steppe dna that way. You're letting the wish become father to the thought (again).

    That idea is patently ridiculous.

    Besides, there is already a thread on that topic here.
     


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  16. #4230
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The whole point of CW is the cultural and genetic mixing with local Northern Europeans, just as the ethnogenesis of Yamnaya occurs with the mixing between EHGs and CHGs, otherwise we would still be calling Yamnaya people Khalvynsk .
    So who were the early Corded Ware people that looked like Yamnaya genetically? They were Yamnaya according to you?

    Why are they referred to as Corded Ware and not Yamnaya in the relevant papers?

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