Page 333 of 485 FirstFirst ... 233283323331332333334335343383433 ... LastLast
Results 3,321 to 3,330 of 4848

Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #3321
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,301
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I tend to think DF27 is also a later arrival i.e. after Bell Beaker for the most part.
    DF27 seems too complex for generalisation. The specifically Northern subclades could have arrived with the Vikings or whatever. I referred only to DF27*.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     corner (01-22-2017), Power77 (01-22-2017)

  3. #3322
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,937
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Thing to note is there are no certain beaker dates pre dating 2400bc in Ireland and very little of it is maritime style. None of the Ross island pottery was of maritime type. Ireland actually has a far higher proportion of central European type hollowbased arrowheads to western barbed and tanged types than Britain. Ireland also has far more polypod bowls than Britain. Again they are a central European type. It is also clear that wedge tombs in their original beaker phase of use tended to just have a few burials and are not comparable to collective burial tombs. So as per usual, Ireland is quirky in the way it absorbed beaker traits and a simple west vs Rhenish dicotimy doesn't work. Personally I suspect the source of Irish beaker may be somewhere like Normandy where Rhenish beaker influences start to run into Atlantic ones. Personally I don't think the maritime beakers users were originally R1b people at all.
    Last edited by alan; 01-22-2017 at 02:03 AM.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     David Mc (01-22-2017), MJost (01-22-2017), Power77 (01-22-2017), rms2 (01-22-2017)

  5. #3323
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,937
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    I think the key to understanding the confusing mixed signals in the earliest beaker folk from the isles is their late date by European standards of c 2400BC. By then east and west had been mixing for a century or more

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (01-22-2017), rms2 (01-22-2017)

  7. #3324
    Registered Users
    Posts
    265
    Sex
    Location
    aka Maabof @ Dorset, UK
    Ethnicity
    2.5% Neandertal 97.5%Frog
    Nationality
    English
    Y-DNA
    R-L21 FGC5494 A1308
    mtDNA
    K2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I did not say that specific Rhenish Beaker pottery arrived in NI. I simply referred to a route down the Rhine into Britain that eventually led BB people across into NI. If you want to think of it as a route from Portugal across into the Carpathian Basin before going down the Rhine, you can do.
    Ok, I am with you now. Thought for a moment you had L21 arrival with no connection to your Stelae people.

    I guess the only difference between my preferred option and your (partly) published ideas is you see L21 (and U152) heading the 'Carpathian route (or U152 a variation on that) with DF27 on the Atlantic.
    I see DF27 and L21 on the Atlantic route with U152 on the inland route.

    I am swayed to the L21/DF27 link because of the later Atlantic Bronze Age where I see a close (integral) relationship between L21 and DF27 and a trading/periodic conflict zone between L21 and U152 (e.g. Fort Harrouard etc).

    Anyway, this is a mere detail in the bigger picture and we agree the need to wait for the aDNA to be able to work the story through in that detail.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Net Down G5L For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (01-22-2017)

  9. #3325
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,301
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    your (partly) published ideas
    Completely published. What I'm saying here is no different from the hypothesis in Blood of the Celts (2015). The L21 and DF27 ideas are in there and had been thrashed out on this forum over and over again for some time before finding their way into print. So it's all old stuff for many people here.

    we agree the need to wait for the aDNA to be able to work the story through in that detail
    Exactly. The big BB aDNA paper is what we are eagerly awaiting. I don't think we can get much further without it.
    Last edited by Jean M; 01-22-2017 at 09:57 AM.

  10. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-22-2017), ArmandoR1b (01-22-2017), jdean (01-22-2017), Kelso (01-23-2017), Power77 (01-22-2017), rms2 (01-22-2017)

  11. #3326
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,991
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Net Down G5L View Post
    Ok, I am with you now. Thought for a moment you had L21 arrival with no connection to your Stelae people.

    I guess the only difference between my preferred option and your (partly) published ideas is you see L21 (and U152) heading the 'Carpathian route (or U152 a variation on that) with DF27 on the Atlantic.
    I see DF27 and L21 on the Atlantic route with U152 on the inland route.

    I am swayed to the L21/DF27 link because of the later Atlantic Bronze Age where I see a close (integral) relationship between L21 and DF27 and a trading/periodic conflict zone between L21 and U152 (e.g. Fort Harrouard etc).

    Anyway, this is a mere detail in the bigger picture and we agree the need to wait for the aDNA to be able to work the story through in that detail.
    Recall that both U152 and DF27 share a common ancestor, ZZ11, below P312. Outside of Iberia, where DF27 is dominant, U152 and DF27 share a lot of territory in common.

    My own view is that, for some reason, L21, of all the Beaker lineages, had Britain and Ireland pretty much to itself, with only the native, pre-existing population to deal with. Very little DF27 and U152 came to the Isles with Beaker: not none, but not much. I agree with MitchellSince1893 that most of the DF27 and U152 came later, during the Iron Age. IMHO, the Romans are responsible for some it, probably more than we currently imagine.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  12. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     ADW_1981 (01-22-2017), Agamemnon (01-22-2017), ArmandoR1b (01-22-2017), Camulogène Rix (01-22-2017), jdean (01-22-2017), Jean M (01-22-2017), Piquerobi (01-22-2017), Power77 (01-22-2017), Pribislav (01-22-2017), TrickyDick (01-23-2017)

  13. #3327
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,829
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R1b - Z220 A7066+
    mtDNA
    U4b1a2 - FGS

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    I haven't looked at L21 in great enough detail, but what makes DF27 so frustrating is that it is filled with tiny branches with few members and extremely wide distribution. Granted, if some of these outlier cases knew they were more recent immigrants, it would make some of these countries less relevant but it requires a great deal of research and information.

    I was about to suggest that DF17 (a brother of N-S cluster sharing DYS448=18) had a British/Irish concentration, which it does...but it also has some Iberian and Italian members which throws an annoying wrench into the mix.
    Another case is a bifurcation of S21884+/ZZ40+ and Z295+, which seems to be divided between West-Central Europe and Iberia respectively. The most well known clade under Z295+ being M153+ of the Basque. Upon a deeper glance, we see that's not really true either, since Z295+ is a massive group with many subbranches throughout a large swath of Europe including Scandinavia.

    If this doesn't give you a headache I don't know what would. I don't know if we will have an answer, but I suspect even 500 years of industrialization and immigration might be tricking us a little bit, not just for R1b, but other groups as well.

    When we discuss more generically DF27, L21, U152..etc, I think we might be able to resolve this through ancient DNA, but we will need a substantial number of high quality samples.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 01-22-2017 at 03:22 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

  14. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to ADW_1981 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-22-2017), Jean M (01-22-2017), Michał (01-22-2017), Power77 (01-22-2017), Pribislav (01-22-2017), rms2 (01-22-2017)

  15. #3328
    Registered Users
    Posts
    258
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese
    Y-DNA
    R1b DF27
    mtDNA
    H5a2

    Portugal
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I haven't looked at L21 in great enough detail, but what makes DF27 so frustrating is that it is filled with tiny branches with few members and extremely wide distribution. [...]

    If this doesn't give you a headache I don't know what would.
    DF27 is a nightmare. I gave up making any sense of it. When you think you saw a pattern, here comes a new sample that spoils everything.
    Father's mtDNA: T1a4
    Maternal YDNA: R-L21 Z251

  16. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Lugus For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-22-2017), jdean (01-22-2017), Jean M (01-22-2017), Michał (01-22-2017), Power77 (01-22-2017), rms2 (01-22-2017)

  17. #3329
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,379
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA
    DF27, FGC15748
    mtDNA
    T2f3

    I told my doctor that I had chronic headaches, and my sleep was frequently disturbed by nightmares. He and some specialist consultants ran a bunch of tests (blood work, cardio scans, etc.) and had me complete a long questionnaire. They eventually diagnosed that I was basically healthy, but was admin of the DF27 project. So he recommended an OTC regimen, Advil for pain and Benadryl for insomnia -- or just not doing that. You should have seen the bill, Medicare only covered about 1/3. Still, that was better than the plan where I used to work, since my DF27+ is considered a pre existing condition.

  18. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-22-2017), Bas (01-24-2017), Camulogène Rix (01-22-2017), David Mc (01-22-2017), gotten (01-22-2017), jdean (01-22-2017), Jean M (01-22-2017), Judith (01-22-2017), Lugus (01-22-2017), Michał (01-23-2017), Power77 (01-23-2017), rms2 (01-22-2017), Tomenable (01-23-2017)

  19. #3330
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,365
    Sex
    Location
    Carolina, N. America
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European mutt
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R-U152>>>FGC12384
    mtDNA
    H1

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    DF27 seems too complex for generalisation. The specifically Northern subclades could have arrived with the Vikings or whatever. I referred only to DF27*.
    I agree and have said that those seeking simple explanations to explain a haplogroup's present day patterns will probably be frustrated as illustrated here
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...got-to-Britain

    While some DF27 and U152 probably arrived in the Isles during the BB period, I don't believe this was the primary arrival event for these two groups...unlike L21.

    Caveat: If there were two arrival events during the BB period, an early one dominated by L21, and a later one, I could see DF27 being a significant contributor to the later.

    It appears L21 came in first which precluded DF27 from being a pan-Isles hg.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-22-2017 at 07:19 PM.
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-22-2017), Power77 (01-23-2017), rms2 (01-22-2017)

Page 333 of 485 FirstFirst ... 233283323331332333334335343383433 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R-L21+ = Bell Beaker?
    By evon in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-08-2015, 09:47 AM
  2. A deeper think about beakers and genes
    By alan in forum R1b General
    Replies: 581
    Last Post: 02-23-2015, 11:39 AM
  3. Conference of Jan Turek about Bell Beakers
    By Bernard in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-30-2013, 02:14 PM
  4. Bell Beaker Isotopes
    By dartraighe in forum General
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 06-02-2013, 12:43 AM
  5. Replies: 83
    Last Post: 05-27-2013, 05:51 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •