Page 412 of 419 FirstFirst ... 312362402410411412413414 ... LastLast
Results 4,111 to 4,120 of 4189

Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4111
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,936
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27 FGC17112
    mtDNA
    H5a1

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    According to Ivanova, Budzhak practiced a variety of burial poses, including crouched on the left side (eastern BB style). "Curled on the back" (typical Yamnaya pose) was the most frequent, however.

    From page 91:
    6.1% isn't much to base anything on. Gumelnita-Karanova typical burials are almost all flexed on the left side. It is also much more common in the Balkan Chalcolithic than Budzhak.

  2. #4112
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Here's something interesting from page 113 of Ivanova's article, given the Malopolska Bell Beaker stuff:

    Quote Originally Posted by Svitlana Ivanova
    The authors believe that the Dniester way linked the population of the late Eneolithic – Early Bronze Age of the North-Western Pontic Region not only with the Sokal ridge or Malopolska, where the pottery complex of the Zlota culture contained vessels comparable with the pottery of the Usatovo type [Włodarczak 2008: 520] . Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig . 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).
    Here's Figure 17 from Ivanova's article (page 110) that shows two Budzhak burials with Corded Ware correspondences, and I would say also Bell Beaker correspondences. #1 is from Purcari in Moldova, and #2 is from Alkaliya near Zatoka in Ukraine.

    Note the burial posture, crouched on the left side, like Bell Beaker, and the archer's equipment. After clicking on the image, click on it again to make it larger.

    Budzhak burials with CW correspondences-Ivanova p. 110.jpg
    Last edited by rms2; 08-12-2017 at 09:25 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  3. #4113
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    6.1% isn't much to base anything on. Gumelnita-Karanova typical burials are almost all flexed on the left side. It is also much more common in the Balkan Chalcolithic than Budzhak.
    That's kind of early (4700-3950 BC) and looks like a mostly Old European farmer culture with loads of mother goddess figurines.

    Plus if you look at Rich Rocca's Post #4081 the Bulgarian stomping ground of Gumelnita-Karanova is I2a and G2a territory in the EBA.

    Budzhak also made use of stone stelae, and those burials from Figure 17 I posted in my last post above are a lot like Bell Beaker burials, including archer's equipment and the crouched left side burial posture.

    As I mentioned in previous posts, in the Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba culture on the Pontic steppe the most common burial posture was crouched on the side. That culture also used anthropomorphic stone stelae, mounds (kurgans), stone-lined burial cists, and stone cromlechs. Those are all things it had in common with Bell Beaker, and Budzhak occupied the northwestern part of the old Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba territory.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-12-2017 at 09:23 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  4. #4114
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Speaking of Gumelnita-Karanovo, in her book, The Civilization of the Goddess, pp. 90-99, Gimbutas regards it as a mother goddess-worshiping, Old European Neolithic farmer culture. She says this of the physical anthropology of the Gumelnita-Karanovo people (page 93):

    Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    The Karanovo-Gumelnita population was gracile Mediterranean mixed with gracilized proto-Europid type.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  5. #4115
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    You know, I do not know if Budzhak is the mystery pre-Bell Beaker culture we are seeking, but it fills some of the bill. I think Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba is really similar to Bell Beaker in its burial rites. I really think it might be the source of the L51, L151 or P312 in Bell Beaker.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  6. #4116
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,936
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1b-DF27 FGC17112
    mtDNA
    H5a1

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That's kind of early (4700-3950 BC) and looks like a mostly Old European farmer culture with loads of mother goddess figurines.

    Plus if you look at Rich Rocca's Post #4081 the Bulgarian stomping ground of Gumelnita-Karanova is I2a and G2a territory in the EBA.

    Budzhak also made use of stone stelae, and those burials from Figure 17 I posted in my last post above are a lot like Bell Beaker burials, including archer's equipment and the crouched left side burial posture.

    As I mentioned in previous posts, in the Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba culture on the Pontic steppe the most common burial posture was crouched on the side. That culture also used anthropomorphic stone stelae, mounds (kurgans), stone-lined burial cists, and stone cromlechs. Those are all things it had in common with Bell Beaker, and Budzhak occupied the northwestern part of the old Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba territory.
    I know plenty about all of these cultures. I'm not someone that needs to read the 500 posts on Gimbutas every week or be schooled by anyone. Fixating on burial position and archery will get you to lots of cultures. Most are Chalcolithic Balkan groups with much more connection than just a burial position of 6.1%. There's also a stronger pottery connection there. Archery equipment is all over Europe. Tanged daggers likely start south of the Caucasus. There's so much of a mixed bag in Bell Beaker that you can't point to one group.

    You guys fixate on one thing too much, like pressure-flaking. Bell Beaker and Yamnaya could come from anywhere east of the Rhine.

    Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

  7. #4117
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    I know plenty about all of these cultures.
    Great. Teach the rest of us then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    I'm not someone that needs to read the 500 posts on Gimbutas every week or be schooled by anyone.
    This might be a thread to avoid then, since the name Gimbutas is in its very title, but there is plenty of stuff here from other authors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Fixating on burial position and archery will get you to lots of cultures. Most are Chalcolithic Balkan groups with much more connection than just a burial position of 6.1%. There's also a stronger pottery connection there. Archery equipment is all over Europe. Tanged daggers likely start south of the Caucasus. There's so much of a mixed bag in Bell Beaker that you can't point to one group.

    You guys fixate on one thing too much, like pressure-flaking. Bell Beaker and Yamnaya could come from anywhere east of the Rhine.

    Just sit back and enjoy the ride.
    I don't recall anyone making an argument from burial position alone. Most of us have seen photos of various prehistoric burials in which the body was placed crouched on its side. It was a common burial posture. The crouched-on-the-side pose was just one of a suite of factors that might help identify a pre-Beaker culture.

    I enjoy talking about this stuff and chewing it over with others. If we all just sat back and enjoyed the ride, Anthrogenica would be a pretty dull place, and, effectively, there'd be no ride at all.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-13-2017 at 09:32 AM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  8. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     ArmandoR1b (08-13-2017), David Mc (08-13-2017), Gravetto-Danubian (08-13-2017), Michał (08-13-2017), Silesian (08-13-2017)

  9. #4118
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I am not an expert on all these European Neolithic, Eneolithic and Bronze Age cultures. Often when they are mentioned on threads like this one, I have to look them up. I have learned a lot that way. In fact, I had not read much of what Gimbutas wrote until Piquerobi started this thread almost three years ago and sparked my interest. Up until Rich Rocca started the thread on Corded Ware as a possible source of the P312 in Bell Beaker, I had never heard of the Budzhak culture.

    That's part of what makes all this stuff fun.

    I don't know where P312 and his brothers came from, but I would like to find out. It's fun to look at the various clues with others here and try to take our best guesses.

    My posting style often leaves a lot to be desired and comes off as more combative and pedantic than I would like it to. For that I apologize.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  10. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     emmental (08-13-2017), JMcB (08-13-2017), kostoffj (08-15-2017), Michał (08-13-2017), paoloferrari (08-14-2017), R.Rocca (08-14-2017), Ravai (08-14-2017)

  11. #4119
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I frequently complain that we don't have any ancient y-dna from the thousands of kurgans in the Carpathian basin. We also don't have any ancient y-dna from the 4th and 3rd millennia BC on the Pontic steppe from cultures like Mikhailovka-Kemi Oba and Yamnaya/Budzhak.

    Here's something interesting from Volker Heyd's excellent paper, Yamnaya Groups and Tumuli West of the Black Sea (2011), page 535, relative to the number of kurgans, the pre-Yamnaya dates of many of them, and the burial postures:

    Quote Originally Posted by Volker Heyd
    Ten thousand round tumuli characterize the plains around the lower Danube, its tributaries and the central Carpathian basin. The very origin of their erection goes often back to the 4th and the 3rd millennium B. C. About 500 excavated tumuli from the present countries of Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary testify to their constructors: populations of the “Yamnaya Culture”, known also under the terms “Pit Grave Culture” or “Ochre Grave Culture”. Typical are primary single graves in rectangular pits dug into the underground before the erection of the tumuli, and secondary single graves in the tumulus filling often accompanied by a further tumulus heightening. The position of the body is either supine with flexed legs or a crouched position on the side; in any case, usually orientated in a west-east direction. Intensive strewing of ochre powder, textiles, furs and mats for the pit walls and floors, and wooden beams to cover it, are further characteristics, along with a general lack of accompanying grave gifts.
    Heyd points out that steppe people were infiltrating the Carpathian basin long before Yamnaya, and, of course, Gimbutas claimed there were two waves of steppe pastoralist migrations before Yamnaya, which was her Wave 3. Perhaps the men carrying R1b-L51 were part of one or both of those earlier waves of steppe migration (Ibid, pages 543-544) :

    Quote Originally Posted by Volker Heyd
    As the Boleráz and Baden tumuli cases in Serbia and Hungary demonstrate, there are earlier, 4th millennium cal. B.C. round tumuli in the Carpathian basin3. There are also earlier north-Pontic steppe populations who infiltrated similar environments west of the Black Sea prior to the rise of the Yamnaya culture. This situation can be traced back to the second half of the 5th millennium cal. B.C. to a group of distinct burials, zoomorphic maceheads, long flint blades, triangular flint points, etc., summarized under the term Suvorovo-Novodanilovka (Govedarica 2004; Rassamakin 2004; Anthony 2007; Heyd forthcoming 2011). They also erected round personalized tumuli, though smaller in size and height, above inhumations of single individuals . . . Indeed we can find this early steppe impact throughout the 4th millennium cal. B.C.

    All of these tumuli and burials demonstrate, though, that there is already a constant but perhaps low-level 4th millennium cal. B.C. steppe interaction, linking the regions north of the Black Sea with those of the west, and reaching deep into the Carpathian basin. This has to be acknowledged, even if these populations remain small, bounded to their steppe habitat with an economy adapted to this special environment, and are not always visible in the record. Indirect hints may help in seeing them, such as the frequent occurrence of horse bones, regarded as deriving from domesticated horses, in Hungarian Baden settlements (Bökönyi 1978; Benecke 1998), and in those of the south German Cham Culture (Matuschik 1999, p.80-82) and the east German Bernburg Culture (Becker 1999; Benecke 1999). These occur, however, always in low numbers, perhaps not enough to maintain and regenerate a herd. Does this point us towards otherwise archaeologically hidden horse-breeders in the Carpathian basin, before the Yamnaya? In any case, I hope to make one case clear: these are by no means Yamnaya burials in the strict definition!
    Last edited by rms2; 08-14-2017 at 07:58 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     MJost (08-15-2017)

  13. #4120
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,446
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    This is interesting regarding the Bell Beaker finds in the Malopolska region of Poland on the Slovakian border and in Germany. It comes from Heyd's paper, mentioned and quoted above, Yamnaya Groups and Tumuli West of the Black Sea, page 539:

    Quote Originally Posted by Volker Heyd
    More puzzling, however, as potential Yamnaya settling and wandering areas are three other regions in Europe: the 8000 sq. km wide little Hungarian plain, called the little Alföld or Kisalföld; the north/north-central Middle Elbe-Saale area of east Germany with its fine Chernozem soils of the here Magdeburger Börde and further steppe vegetation in the shadow of the Harz mountains; and a stripe in the foreland along the east Carpathians in southeast Poland, the current border region between Romania, the Ukraine, and Poland. For all these three regions we do not have “a smoking gun” in the prehistoric record of the first half of the 3rd millennium cal. B.C. pointing towards Yamnaya tumuli and burials. What we have instead, however, are indirect hints, such as the concentration of tumuli (see below), elements of Yamnaya burial customs, anthropomorphic statue-stelae, and artefacts with eastern links or eastern origins.
    This is also significant, from page 546:

    Quote Originally Posted by Volker Heyd
    We have already discussed this Yamnaya package and its content in full detail (Harrison, Heyd 2007), and it does not need to be explained here at any further length. However, three elements should be emphasized:

    1) anthropomorphic stelae, as shown as typical for the Yamnaya
    have a much wider distribution in the early 3rd millennium B.C.
    (Cassini et al. 1995; Cassini, Fossati 2007; Heyd, Harrison 2007);

    2) cord decoration: we can observe the adoption of this special
    decoration technique and its appearance on pottery vessels in
    many archaeological cultures in the southeast of Europe just in
    the period dated by many 14C dates to the first half of the 3rd
    millennium B.C. (Roman et al. 1992; Bertemes 1998);

    3) tumuli.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-15-2017 at 12:06 AM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     kostoffj (08-15-2017), lgmayka (08-15-2017)

Page 412 of 419 FirstFirst ... 312362402410411412413414 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R-L21+ = Bell Beaker?
    By evon in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-08-2015, 08:47 AM
  2. A deeper think about beakers and genes
    By alan in forum R1b General
    Replies: 581
    Last Post: 02-23-2015, 10:39 AM
  3. Conference of Jan Turek about Bell Beakers
    By Bernard in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-30-2013, 01:14 PM
  4. Bell Beaker Isotopes
    By dartraighe in forum General
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 06-01-2013, 11:43 PM
  5. Replies: 83
    Last Post: 05-27-2013, 04:51 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •