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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4021
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    Well, BB culture as such disappeared around 1900 BC, and was succeeded by different cultures.
    The Hallstatt culture is the first culture which showed archeological characteristics connected to Celtic culture. By the way, Celts are an Iron Age culture.
    So there is a gap of 1000 years between the last BBs and Celts. So any connection will be a distant one.

    Now, there are many books on Hallstatt, La Tene, Celts... No need to write again what has been said many times before.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 05-21-2017 at 06:57 PM.

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    Some archaeologists consider there is a continuity between Unetice and Halstatt, through Tumuli and Urnfields cultures.

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  5. #4023
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    I think Hallstatt is too late to be from the very beginning of Celtic, but I don't want to argue about linguistics, since I am not a linguist. I also think it would be more than safe from the standpoint of historical reality to characterize most of L21 as Celtic, but for Mike to do so on his graphic would be to invite attacks from both the Celto-Skeptics and the Germanic/Viking wannabes, so it might be best to avoid it.
     


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  6. #4024
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think Hallstatt is too late to be from the very beginning of Celtic, but I don't want to argue about linguistics, since I am not a linguist. I also think it would be more than safe from the standpoint of historical reality to characterize most of L21 as Celtic, but for Mike to do so on his graphic would be to invite attacks from both the Celto-Skeptics and the Germanic/Viking wannabes, so it might be best to avoid it.
    The problem about using "Celtic" is also because at the time of the BBs, even Proto-Celtic was not formed. I think that Celtic branch and Italic branch formed later. At least some BBs could have spoke something like Proto-Italo-Celtic. But I am not very confident about it. I think that Proto-Italo-Celtic could be related to Unetice, or an Unetice-derived culture.

    More likely, BBs spoke another laguage derived from PIE, extinct since then. Perhaps connected to IE languages spoken in Portugal before the Roman Conquest. Their relation du Celtic languages is not clear, if any.

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  8. #4025
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    I don't like to argue linguistics, because I am not a linguist, and also because it seems that linguistics is a field in which varying opinions and heated arguments are more common than consensus.

    I have seen reputable IE trees that show the split of Italic from Celtic occurring around 2500 BC, so I think it is quite possible most of the Bell Beaker people could have spoken a very early form of Celtic or Proto-Celtic or Pre-Proto-Celtic. Some of them probably spoke early Italic.

    It is also possible they all spoke Italo-Celtic dialects and that Italic and Celtic formed in their respective zones as lingua franca languages that facilitated exchange.

    One thing I really strongly doubt is that Celtic was the product of the Hallstatt culture.
     


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    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
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    Just a question by an ignorant in "bellbeakerology": I read everywhere about the copper use in Bell Beaker sites - copper daggers and arrow points - but, really, I read widely about flint arrow points and dagger in Bell Beaker sites until now. Where did the copper end up?

  11. #4027
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think Hallstatt is too late to be from the very beginning of Celtic...
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I also think it would be more than safe from the standpoint of historical reality to characterize most of L21 as Celtic, but for Mike to do so on his graphic would be to invite attacks from both the Celto-Skeptics and the Germanic/Viking wannabes, so it might be best to avoid it.
    Too late. I couldn't help myself. There are so many Celtic connections for R1b-L21 people I had to include a green Celtic cloud below the Bell Beaker cloud.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l21/about

    I covered myself by calling it "Celts & ???".

    I was tempted to put in "Celtic and Germanic peoples" with no intent of exclusion to other haplogroups but early* "Germanic" is a question mark and that also opens the door to saying "& Basques & Ligurians". We just don't know about those other things but there can be no doubt that the bulk of R1b-L21 spoke Celtic languages for a long period of time.

    This all begs of the question of when something we could call Proto-Celtic was first spoken. I don't know if that is the first day after the Italic and Celtic split? I don't think we can say so as there might have been other dead-end languages before a true Proto-Celtic language could be identified.

    Where it was spoken first is also a big question but one zinger of a question at a time.

    * I honestly think there has been some forms of L21 in Scandinavia and the Low Countries for a long time but to say they were there in time and participated in the Proto-Germanic formation is just not known and highly questionable.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 05-23-2017 at 10:31 PM. Reason: fixed grammar/spelling

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  13. #4028
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    A question for experts... have we got the Y-DNA results of The barbing Bowman from Bavaria?

  14. #4029
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    A question for experts... have we got the Y-DNA results of The barbing Bowman from Bavaria?
    I can't find any word on dna results from the Barbing Bowman. Barbing is a suburb of Regensburg. I cannot find mention of it in Olalde et al.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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