Page 1 of 485 1231151101 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 4848

Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    419
    Location
    Brazil
    Nationality
    Brazilian

    Brazil

    Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

    What is your opinion on Gimbutas' take?

    Since the oldest R1b found in Europe so far has been found at a Bell Beaker site, in Kromsdorf, East Germany, I guess it would be interesting to see what Gimbutas had to say about the Bell Beakers:

    The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction.
    In western Hungary and nothwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millenium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna.
    The spread of the already Indo-Europeanized central European population (the Corded Ware culture) to the northwest and northeast, as well as of the Bell Beaker people to the west, is hardly explainable without some insight into the role played by this element from the east.
    The Proto-Indo Europeans were able to expand to the west, to the east, and to the south primarily because of the horse. Renfrew has also failed to stress the enormous importance of the horse and horseback riding in his treatment of the Bell Beaker phenomenon.
    From "The Kurgan culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe"
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 11-19-2014 at 01:01 PM.

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Piquerobi For This Useful Post:

     Captain Nordic (08-26-2016), Hando (12-14-2014), kinman (05-06-2017), Rafe (11-28-2015), rms2 (11-21-2014), Robert1 (08-15-2017), volk_zargos (11-05-2017)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    419
    Location
    Brazil
    Nationality
    Brazilian

    Brazil
    This is what David W Anthony, leading IE expert, said on the contemporary classic "The Horse, the Wheel and Language":

    Bell Beaker sites of Cespel around Budapest, west of the Yamnaya settlement region, are dated about 2800-2600 BCE. They could have been a bridge between Yamnaya on their east and Austria/Southern Germany to their west, through which Yamnaya dialects spread from Hungary into Austria and Bavaria, where they later developed into Proto-Celtic.
    Beel Beaker decorated cup styles, domestic pot types, and grave and dagger types from the middle Danube were adopted about 2600 BCE in Moravia and Southern Germany. This material network could have been the bridge through which pre-Celtic dialects spread into Germany.
    Interestingly both Italic and Celtic speaking populations are mainly R1b carriers, with basically no R1a.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Piquerobi For This Useful Post:

     Captain Nordic (08-26-2016), Hando (12-14-2014), Rafe (11-28-2015), rms2 (11-21-2014)

  5. #3
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,991
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I have not read any of Gimbutas' work. I have read Mallory, Anthony, Renfrew, and Ivanov and Gamkrelidze. I have read about Gimbutas and her work, however. I think I will buy a copy of the book you mention above.

    I suspect she was onto something with regard to the Beaker Folk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction.
    I wonder about the idea that Beaker came out of Iberia. It just seems too "Kurgan" for that, if you know what I mean. But maybe it came from the steppe to Iberia in the first place? Or maybe what came out of Iberia was not the fully developed Beaker package but merely a contribution to what would become full-blown Beaker in the East?
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Captain Nordic (08-26-2016), Hando (12-14-2014), Piquerobi (11-21-2014)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    419
    Location
    Brazil
    Nationality
    Brazilian

    Brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I have read about Gimbutas and her work, however. I think I will buy a copy of the book you mention above, however.

    I suspect she was onto something with regard to the Beaker Folk.
    That book is a very good one. It has a collection of her articles, following a chronological order. Her theory provides the basic model still accepted for the IE homeland and its expansion. Looking at the spread of both R1a and R1b nowadays, I think she was right about the deep impact of the Indo Europeans. I ordered it via Amazon. Besides that, I have "In Search of the Indo Europeans", by Mallory, "The Horse, the Wheel and Language", by David W Anthony and "How to Kill a Dragon", by Calvert Watkins. Reading these books will provide anyone with a good introduction on IE topics. I guess Indo Europeans are related to the expansions of both R1b and R1a in Europe and in South Asia. I expect Samara and Yamnaya studies to confirm that, if not others.
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 11-22-2014 at 12:39 AM.

  8. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Piquerobi For This Useful Post:

     Captain Nordic (08-26-2016), Hando (12-14-2014), Isidro (11-21-2014), psaglav (01-05-2016), rms2 (11-21-2014), Scarlet Ibis (11-21-2014)

  9. #5
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,991
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I wonder what happened to Gimbutas' idea that Beaker was an offshoot of Vucedol.

    That would make at least some sense, especially in the case of what is considered the classic Beaker skull and skeleton, which was described by Coon and others as Dinaric (the Vucedol Culture was located mainly in Croatia, in the heartland of what used to be called by the oldtimers the "Dinaric race").
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-14-2014)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    419
    Location
    Brazil
    Nationality
    Brazilian

    Brazil
    This is a comment someone else posted at another forum:

    Decorated horse phalanges have also been reported from Bell Beaker sites in Spain (Maier 1961; Piggott 1983). They are perhaps the strongest cultural marker for the Botai, and show a connection with the Tersek, a contemporaneous Copper Age culture in the Turgay region to the west (Kalieva et al. 1989).
    Source: Olsen, S. (2003). "The Exploitation of Horses at Botai, Kazakhstan". In Levine, Marsha; Renfrew, Colin; Boyle, Katie. Prehistoric Steppe Adaptation and the Horse. Cambridge: McDonald Institute.
    Botai:

    Last edited by Piquerobi; 11-25-2014 at 10:31 AM.

  12. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Piquerobi For This Useful Post:

     ArmandoR1b (11-26-2014), Hando (12-14-2014), Jean M (11-25-2014), Judith (12-03-2016), Kwheaton (09-09-2015), Leeroy Jenkins (11-27-2014), psaglav (01-05-2016), rms2 (11-25-2014)

  13. #7
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,991
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    That is really interesting. Do we have dates for those Beaker sites where the decorated horse phalanges were found? They should be able to get radiocarbon dates from the phalanges themselves, right?
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Captain Nordic (08-26-2016), Hando (12-14-2014), Piquerobi (11-25-2014)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    419
    Location
    Brazil
    Nationality
    Brazilian

    Brazil
    ^ I don't know but that would be important to measure.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Piquerobi For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (11-26-2014)

  17. #9
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,991
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Anyway, those decorated horse phalanges strike me as an important clue, especially turning up all the way west in Spain. The Beaker Folk just keep getting more and more mysterious . . . and fascinating.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-14-2014), Piquerobi (11-26-2014)

  19. #10
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,991
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Here are some interesting images from the paper Transition to the Bronze Age: Issues of Continuity and Discontinuity in the First Half of the Third Millennium BC in the Carpathian Basin.

    One can see how Yamnaya occupied the central position in the Carpathian Basin and either spun off or at least probably greatly influenced some of the subsequent cultures.

    Carpathian Basin 3rd Millennium Kulcsar and Szeverenyi.jpg

    The similarities in the cross-footed and pedestalled bowls are rather striking.

    Carpathian Basin 3rd Millennium Kulcsar and Szeverenyi Cross Footed Bowls p 76.jpg
    Last edited by rms2; 12-06-2014 at 02:59 PM. Reason: To correct an omission
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  20. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Captain Nordic (08-26-2016), dodona (06-21-2016), Hando (12-14-2014), Illyro-Vlach (12-25-2015), Jean M (12-06-2014), Judith (12-03-2016), Kwheaton (09-29-2015), Piquerobi (12-06-2014), psaglav (01-05-2016), Rick (12-06-2014)

Page 1 of 485 1231151101 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R-L21+ = Bell Beaker?
    By evon in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-08-2015, 09:47 AM
  2. A deeper think about beakers and genes
    By alan in forum R1b General
    Replies: 581
    Last Post: 02-23-2015, 11:39 AM
  3. Conference of Jan Turek about Bell Beakers
    By Bernard in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-30-2013, 02:14 PM
  4. Bell Beaker Isotopes
    By dartraighe in forum General
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 06-02-2013, 12:43 AM
  5. Replies: 83
    Last Post: 05-27-2013, 05:51 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •