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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4181
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    On page 11 of the Price et al paper, there is a nice, succinct statement of the Dutch Model:



    Given the results of Olalde et al, now would be a good time to test Corded Ware in the Rhine delta.
    I hope we have any.

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  3. #4182
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    From what I understand "Rhine delta" is really kind of a generic term for the Netherlands. Lanting and van der Waals looked on Single Grave Culture north of the Rhine and in the central Netherlands as the source of Bell Beaker.
     


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  5. #4183
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    From what I understand "Rhine delta" is really kind of a generic term for the Netherlands. Lanting and van der Waals looked on Single Grave Culture north of the Rhine and in the central Netherlands as the source of Bell Beaker.
    What I meant is: I hope we have a good usable DNA sample. Tuithoorn was an exception because it was buried under clay but most CWC and BB burials in the Netherlands only yield silhouettes because of he acidity of the soils. But there might be something.

    Example of a corpse silhouette:

    Last edited by epoch; Yesterday at 06:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    From what I understand "Rhine delta" is really kind of a generic term for the Netherlands. Lanting and van der Waals looked on Single Grave Culture north of the Rhine and in the central Netherlands as the source of Bell Beaker.
    Indeed!

    Hereby a picture of the Single Grave (as part of CW) in the Netherlands with in blue my (especially my mothers) auDNA region. It's called the Hondsrug. A BB and CW hotspot. Through the river the Hunze in direct connection with the North Sea.



    (derived from S. Beckerman, Corded Ware Coastal Societies, 2015)

    Clarke (2015):
    "The Northern British/North Rhine Beaker Group (N/NR)
    The particular interest of the Northern/North Rhine group and its close cousin the Barbed Wire beaker group, is that both groups only just scrape within the defnition of beakers of the Bell beaker tradition. Both tlle Northern/North Rhine and the Barbed-Wire beaker groups comprise traditions of mixed Late Corded Ware and peripheral Bell beaker origin. This mixture of traditions can be recognised in the squat, protruding foot, ovoid body beakers with recurved rims, incised or grooved decoration with a poor repertoir of basic beaker motifs and a neolithic poverty of grave associations. To these factors can be added the occasional use of cremation burial rite in a small grave with the beaker beside the cremation heap, and a number of vessels without decoration below the belly.
    The Northern/North Rhine beaker group then is represented by the small squat or globular vessels with protruding feet. The decoration frequently consists of heavy grooving below the rim with crude or carelessly incised zones on the body, including metopic motifs. The typical motif is the multiple outlined triangle of the diagnostic form common throughout the Corded Ware tradition and entirely alien in the Bell beaker motif assemblage (Struve, 1955,p.136).The origin of the group seems to lie in the similar assemblages found immediately North of the old Rhine Delta and along the hinterland of the Frisian coasts. The Dutch examples of this group have been partially defined by Modderman (1955) but the type is centered across the border in coastal Germany4. In this area it would appear that late and devolved Corded Ware groups integrated small bands of beaker settlers producing a pottery assemblage of hybrid character.
    These folk, with their strong non-beaker background, apparently crossed the North Sea in a series of small bands somewhere around 1700 B.C. or slightly later. The settlers clustered in three foci based on the North Sea Coast: - around the Moray Firth, in the Border Counties and on the Yorkshire Wolds. The domestic assemblage included both undecorated and non-plastic rusticated ware. The main importance of these settlers from across the North Sea lies in the subsequent integration of certain of their pottery features with the later Dutch beakers of the Veluwe type, giving rise to regional insular variations such as the beake s with short, angular. all-over-grooved necks.
    Last edited by Finn; Yesterday at 07:34 PM.

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  9. #4185
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    Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker extends into NW Germany, I believe. Hopefully, they can find some skeletons somewhere that will yield informative dna test results, especially y-dna.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I’ve only responded to matters that you yourself have raised. No more. I’m not interested in arguing.

    Let’s move onto Gimbutas, if I may. She has reframed prehistoric developments by setting them within sociological and mythological contexts, and it’s interesting how she utilises terminology (metaphors and adjectival terms) in ways that subliminally colour our perceptions of these developments and make them distinctive.

    Three examples:
    1. The movements of Steppe people she describes metaphorically as repeated “waves”. This makes them appear masculine, powerful, virile and intrusive, helping her to associate them with a male-centred, paternalistic warrior R1b society.
    2. The Steppe people themselves she identifies as “kurgans”, associating them with death, and thereby contrasting them starkly with those in the apparently life-giving, creative, maternal society that they replaced.
    3. The society that the Steppe people replaced is quaintly identified as “Old Europe”, making it seem like the vulnerable victim of the young, fit and strong.

    Her vision and description is a poetic one, full of diametrical opposites; but is it accurate?

    Did the Steppe R1b people and the people of Old Europe neatly divide into two opposing factions?

    Is there evidence that the Steppe R1b people were more powerful and violent, or that Old Europe was not itself intrusive and violent?

    Waves ebb and flow. Is there evidence that the Steppe R1b people kept crashing down on the areas they moved to and then ebbing back to the Steppe where they apparently originated, or did they often stay and build societies in the new areas to which they migrated and not move like waves at all?

    Were the Steppe R1b people death-bringing destroyers or did they actually initiate creation, new invention, culture and population growth?

    Was “Old Europe” really old? If it were, why was its era called the Neolithic? Its G2 societies only apparently arrived in Europe about 1,000 years before R1b-M269, and who was there before “Old Europe”? Together with I2, it seems this was the very R1b people that Gimbutas identifies as intrusive newcomers.

    When there are agendas and themes being promoted, neat black-and-white distinctions drawn and the use of metaphorical terminology, it is important to approach apparently factual conclusions with caution.
    I won't answer you entire hypothesis, because it's beyond the thread.
    But i will suggest to you that the Gimbutas - Mallory- Anthony model of the Suvorovo culture, and its impact on Europe / Balkans/ Anatolia is a false construct. I won't go into the latter, because, the mentioned scholars had nothing to say about it empirically apart from some personal assertions instead of a holisitic treatment of region- wide data.
    But as for the inception of the Suvorovo phenomenon, the whole 'flying unicorn' scenario is a load of nonsense, and based on mis-dated material, which others here seem to think being off by 1000 years has little effect on interpretation.
    What it actually represents is the acculturation of and drawing in of local Carpathian - lower Danube ;native; foragers into the varna -Karanovo VI prestige exchange system, with a net flow from west to east, reaching lastly the Volga and Kuban regions.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; Today at 12:57 AM.

  12. #4187
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    Where is the big discussion of Suvorovo-Novodanilovka? I have not seen it. I used a quote from Heyd that mentioned it in Post #4119, and epp evidently found it interesting, since Suvorovo-Novodanilovka predates Yamnaya and is said to have been west of the Black Sea already in the second half of the 5th millennium BC. But other than a couple of mentions, no real discussion of Suvorovo-Novodanilovka has taken place.

    Anyone who wants to is free to start talking about it, however. Like so many of the cultures of the western steppe, the Carpathian basin, etc., we don't have any dna from Suvorovo-Novodanilovka yet.
     


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  14. #4188
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Where is the big discussion of Suvorovo-Novodanilovka? I have not seen it. I used a quote from Heyd that mentioned it in Post #4119, and epp evidently found it interesting, since Suvorovo-Novodanilovka predates Yamnaya and is said to have been west of the Black Sea already in the second half of the 5th millennium BC. But other than a couple of mentions, no real discussion of Suvorovo-Novodanilovka has taken place.

    Anyone who wants to is free to start talking about it, however. Like so many of the cultures of the western steppe, the Carpathian basin, etc., we don't have any dna from Suvorovo-Novodanilovka yet.
    Huh. Don't we ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Huh. Don't we ?
    Not as far as I know. If we do have dna results from Suvorovo-Novodanilovka, that would be news, at least to me.
     


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    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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