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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #3941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    aDNA will show that Viking period was very cosmopolitan for Scandinavia (at least certain important sites). So it wasnt just brutish Vikings going out and pillaging
    The Britons and Irish pillaged each other. That's what cattle-raiding is all about!
    Maternal grandfather (MDKA: Johannes Nicholas Schaefer, Germany) - yDNA: R1b-U106+, mtDNA: T2
    Maternal grandmother (MDKA: Angelina Centrella, Avellino, Campania, Italia) - mtDNA: HV4a1

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  2. #3942
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    As I have repeatedly pointed out, R1b in modern Scandinavia is roughly half U106 and half P312, although it varies by region.
    The modern proportions might not be representative of various stages in the past. We have ancient U106 from Sweden. I don't doubt we'll eventually get some ancient P312 from Scandinavia. See what I wrote below.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    Do you think the immigrants since the Viking Age were only P312? I believe most immigration to Scandinavia in historical times came from Germany, where U106 is not unknown. Also many immigrants from other countries since the middle ages retained their original surname or some form of it. For instance I am aware of a Hamilton family in Sweden who came there from Scotland in the 17th century. I find it difficult to envisage a scenario where the U106 half of R1b in Scandinavia was native and the P312 half (except L238) were all or very nearly all immigrants. Also if P312 were mostly immigrants, I doubt very much they would be as widespread in Scandinavia, and found even in rural areas.

    I do agree that aDNA, even as late as the Viking period, would be very helpful in solving some of the riddles of R1b in Scandinavia.
    If you read my original post, you would see that I said maybe some of the U106 was the product of relatively recently immigration, as well. You must have missed that part. Here it is, from post #3925:

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2
    I'm sorry to say this, because I know it disappoints quite a few people, especially those who had hoped for Viking ancestry, but I think a fairly substantial amount of the P312 there, and maybe even some of the U106, are products of relatively recent immigration.
    The main difference between U106 and P312 is that we actually have ancient U106 from Sweden. Eventually we'll get some ancient P312 somewhere in Scandinavia, as well, but in my second post on the topic, I was answering what you said about P312.

    Unfair of you to require me to address U106 in a reply to your post that was about P312. Besides, I had already mentioned U106 and relatively recent immigration to Scandinavia and you had ignored it.
    Last edited by rms2; Today at 10:36 PM.
     


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  3. #3943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    aDNA will show that Viking period was very cosmopolitan for Scandinavia (at least certain important sites). So it wasnt just brutish Vikings going out and pillaging
    I thought I remembered a Scandinavian Viking era skeleton that had tested I-M253, but I guess I must have dreamed it, because I could not find it at Jean's Ancient Eurasian DNA site.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36974 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  4. #3944
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I thought I remembered a Scandinavian Viking era skeleton that had tested I-M253, but I guess I must have dreamed it, because I could not find it at Jean's Ancient Eurasian DNA site.
    Maybe I was thinking of the Anglo-Saxon I1, NO3423, from Norton Bishopsmill, Teesside, in England, dated 650–910 A.D., but I would have sworn there was a Viking I-M253 result from somewhere. Oh, well.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36974 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  5. #3945
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    Maybe we can get back to Bell Beaker, Gimbutas, and R1b and leave Scandinavia for another thread.

    I still have my doubts about U106 and Bell Beaker, but we'll see, I guess.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36974 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  6. #3946
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I thought I remembered a Scandinavian Viking era skeleton that had tested I-M253, but I guess I must have dreamed it, because I could not find it at Jean's Ancient Eurasian DNA site.
    Faulconer pointed out to me that I probably had Birger Magnusson in mind, from Sweden, but he was a little late to be a Viking, having died in 1266. Birger Magnusson was I-M253, not surprising for a Swede. He was the founder of a line of kings of Sweden and Norway.

    I believe he is right. My memory made him a Viking, but I misremembered.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36974 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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