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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4511
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    Where are all the branches of R1b-Z2109 today that look to have coalesced on the Steppe? All I can find in FTDNA's database is one withered branch of CTS7822.

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  3. #4512
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    Where are all the branches of R1b-Z2109 today that look to have coalesced on the Steppe? All I can find in FTDNA's database is one withered branch of CTS7822.
    Some R1b Yamnaya samples precede R1b- CTS-7822

    For example Yamnaya Russia Luzhki I, Samara River, Samara [I0438 / SVP 50] M 3021-2635 BC 579,356 R1b1a2a2* [Z2103] Z2105+, L23+, L320+, L584-, CTS7822-
    Here is a rough outline
    R1b-Z2106>R1b-Z2108/2109>R1b-Z2110
    Now you may want to know why this is important and how it relates in geography to other R1b samples.
    Last edited by Silesian; Yesterday at 09:59 PM.
    Silesian's, Georaphical-Ethno-Religious-genetic-index
    1-Y-DNA-R1b-Z2103-Autochthonous and Compatible within Yamanya culture-Steppe-burial customs-traditions-Europe
    2-Mtdna-U5b2a2-Autochthonous and Compatible within Europe-Poland/Prussia
    3-AIM-ancestry-informative markers-Autochthonous and Compatible within Europe-Steppe-Poland
    European-Steppe

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  5. #4513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Some R1b Yamnaya samples precede R1b- CTS-7822

    For example Yamnaya Russia Luzhki I, Samara River, Samara [I0438 / SVP 50] M 3021-2635 BC 579,356 R1b1a2a2* [Z2103] Z2105+, L23+, L320+, L584-, CTS7822-
    Here is a rough outline
    R1b-Z2106>R1b-Z2108/2109>R1b-Z2110
    Now you may want to know why this is important and how it relates in geography to other R1b samples.
    Yes, this would be interesting.

    Presumably, the sample doesn't actually precede CTS7822, which yfull estimates as originating in 3,700BC (although I estimate it is younger than this).

    From these SNPs, I suppose this individual could be PF331 (now found in Arabia, England and Italy), Y4364 (now found in Italy and Armenia), Z2103* (not found?), Z2106xZ2109 (now found in Italy, Scotland, Armenia, Arabia, Russia and China) or Z2109xCTS7822 (now found in Russia, Greece, India, Iraq, Germany, Hungary, Sweden and Scotland).

    I very much doubt he was a direct ancestor of one of the principal (European) branches of Z2109, which had probably split off from his branch several hundred years beforehand. I would say it is much more likely that he or one of his ancestors wandered eastwards over to Samara from the Pontic Steppe or the Western Caucasus some time after these European branches had formed.

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  7. #4514
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    Yes, this would be interesting.

    Presumably, the sample doesn't actually precede CTS7822, which yfull estimates as originating in 3,700BC (although I estimate it is younger than this).

    From these SNPs, I suppose this individual could be PF331 (now found in Arabia, England and Italy), Y4364 (now found in Italy and Armenia), Z2103* (not found?), Z2106xZ2109 (now found in Italy, Scotland, Armenia, Arabia, Russia and China) or Z2109xCTS7822 (now found in Russia, Greece, India, Iraq, Germany, Hungary, Sweden and Scotland).

    I very much doubt he was a direct ancestor of one of the principal (European) branches of Z2109, which had probably split off from his branch several hundred years beforehand. I would say it is much more likely that he or one of his ancestors wandered eastwards over to Samara from the Pontic Steppe or the Western Caucasus some time after these European branches had formed.
    Putting the question of basal R1b snps on the side for a minute.
    I try and think in terms of a puzzle. Where can we find some of the oldest wagon burials? Where do European wine/grapes [pips]originate.How did the word for wine end up in Proto-Karvelian/Hittitite/Greek/Armenian- Proto-Indo-European? Or solving the problem of Iranian loanwords in Slavic, their distribution and relative chronology. What about the frequency of the Rh negative gene? I have read that some put the d gene in Georgians at higher frequency than other Caucasian ethnic groups, and also higher than in most parts of the population of the Near East and Europe, e.g. in the Zugdidi district of Western Georgia it is more than 48% (NASIDZE et al. 1990, 612; Table 2; INASARIDZE et al. interesting for further investigation ) How about the match in segments that Eurogenes found between some samples and Yamnaya Kalmykia- Afanasievo-Rathlin-Irish ? How about the Baltic R1a samples Eurogenes was pointing out were very similar to Yamnaya R1b samples?
    Finally what about Yersinia pestis. Could this fit in the puzzle with any of the above?

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  9. #4515
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    Wouldn't it be a bit of a simplistic generalisation to assert that nomadic Steppe people all resolutely stayed put in the Steppe during the 1,300 years or more since L23's formation, and then never moved in any direction but west thereafter? The twin ideas that no L23 individuals ever ventured into Central Europe over its first 1,300 years, nor ever tried moving eastwards - to me, these seem highly implausible.

    From where in the Steppe? It's a very big place.

    And how long after 2,900 BC?
    Sure its simplistic, but its what the ancient DNA is overwhelmingly showing us to date.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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