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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #4321
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    Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade and admit that Bell Beakers and R1b have a conjunction and a disjunction relationship and Gimbutas had no idea what a R1b was.
    To assume that R1b was the sole carrier of Bell beaker (whatever anyone wants to package this as ) is not only intelligently insulting but borderline supremacist regardless of whatever it's fountain of youth was. Cultures act like a vacuum of multiple influences so I insist please drop the idea that R1b is the cradle of Bell Beakers, that belongs with the lore of Miles espain, Franco Cantabrian birth of Wahm or horse riding fairies from the steppes.
    Just remember the present is looking at you as self satisfying walkiries but the real test is your descendants... you will be judged by them.

  2. #4322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade and admit that Bell Beakers and R1b have a conjunction and a disjunction relationship and Gimbutas had no idea what a R1b was.
    To assume that R1b was the sole carrier of Bell beaker (whatever anyone wants to package this as )
    I have been staying out of this but this is wrong to carry on with strawmen to be shot down and with stereotyping.

    I have yet to have read anyone on this forum seriously propose that R1b was the sole carrier of Bell Beaker cultures.

    Isidro, please site and quote who claims "sole carrier of Bell Beaker".

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    is not only intelligently insulting but borderline supremacist regardless of whatever it's fountain of youth was. Cultures act like a vacuum of multiple influences so I insist please drop the idea that R1b is the cradle of Bell Beakers, that belongs with the lore of Miles espain, Franco Cantabrian birth of Wahm or horse riding fairies from the steppes.
    I have European descent. So what? That doesn't mean I should be stereotyped. I think we are watching too much of the news channels. My children have some Native American, North African and Jewish blood (so says Family Finder and heritage). Neither my identity nor theirs is tied up in identity politics.

    I do not understand the need to assign people to groups by argument and then bring up language like "supremacist" or "walkiries" in some kind of imaginary psychoanalysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Just remember the present is looking at you as self satisfying walkiries but the real test is your descendants... you will be judged by them.
    I will only be judged by the one in truth and I do not worry that my descendants will judge me in any way other than I what I am, which has both good and bad.

    Let's not mix the political news channels with open and civil debate.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-13-2017 at 01:31 AM.

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  4. #4323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade and admit that Bell Beakers and R1b have a conjunction and a disjunction relationship and Gimbutas had no idea what a R1b was.
    To assume that R1b was the sole carrier of Bell beaker (whatever anyone wants to package this as ) is not only intelligently insulting but borderline supremacist regardless of whatever it's fountain of youth was. Cultures act like a vacuum of multiple influences so I insist please drop the idea that R1b is the cradle of Bell Beakers, that belongs with the lore of Miles espain, Franco Cantabrian birth of Wahm or horse riding fairies from the steppes.
    Just remember the present is looking at you as self satisfying walkiries but the real test is your descendants... you will be judged by them.
    If anyone ever wondered why there are anthropologists who will look at the ruins of fortresses and deny they're fortresses and say they're high status party houses instead, it's because of stuff like this. Reading a bunch of modern political junk into a discussion of how many haplogroups can dance on the head of a pin and then accusing the participants of criminal wrongthink and being tantamount to racists. This is the internet and people squabble over *everything.* No one's being a "supremacist" WHATEVER THAT IS, settle down.

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  6. #4324
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    'Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friends. I have always thought that it's a crime...' We can work it out (Lennon and McCartney)
    Last edited by alan; 09-13-2017 at 08:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Maybe it is time to call a spade a spade and admit that Bell Beakers and R1b have a conjunction and a disjunction relationship and Gimbutas had no idea what a R1b was.
    Who ever said she did? She died in 1994, for goodness' sake. Gimbutas is relevant because of her ideas about European prehistory, especially her Kurgan Hypothesis and her ideas about Bell Beaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    To assume that R1b was the sole carrier of Bell beaker (whatever anyone wants to package this as ) is not only intelligently insulting but borderline supremacist regardless of whatever it's fountain of youth was.
    Wow. Disagree a little with some people and one is "borderline supremacist" or engaged in the "Urvolk fantasy", with all the attendant evils those things imply.

    I thought openly questioning motives was against forum rules.

    Besides, almost no one I know of thinks Bell Beaker was exclusively R1b. We know from the Olalde et al results that early Iberian BB was predominantly I2a, so that takes care of that. There was even a little non-R1b in non-Iberian Bell Beaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    Cultures act like a vacuum of multiple influences so I insist please drop the idea that R1b is the cradle of Bell Beakers, that belongs with the lore of Miles espain, Franco Cantabrian birth of Wahm or horse riding fairies from the steppes.
    Just remember the present is looking at you as self satisfying walkiries but the real test is your descendants... you will be judged by them.
    There is no getting around the fact that non-Iberian Bell Beaker was mainly R1b-P312, at least based on the ancient y-dna test results thus far.

    Not sure about all the rest of that, i.e., the incoherent bits.
    Last edited by rms2; 09-13-2017 at 11:15 AM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  10. #4326
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    Guys, the Corded Ware thread was closed due to pissing matches. Are we really doing this again?
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

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    I hope we are still allowed to disagree with others and express different opinions.

    Last edited by rms2; 09-13-2017 at 12:10 PM.
     


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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  14. #4328
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    ...
    Besides, almost no one I know of thinks Bell Beaker was exclusively R1b. We know from the Olalde et al results that early Iberian BB was predominantly I2a, so that takes care of that. There was even a little non-R1b in non-Iberian Bell Beaker.
    ...
    There is no getting around the fact that non-Iberian Bell Beaker was mainly R1b-P312, at least based on the ancient y-dna test results thus far.
    I think the clause "thus far" is critical. I don't think we have a good survey of all parts of Bell Beaker regions. I'm particularly interested with the East Bell Beakers who reached into Poland and along the Baltic to Denmark. We also don't have a lot on the Italic Beakers.

    On the other hand, we have parts of Corded Ware and and Yamnaya missing too from aDNA testing.

    This is particularly precarious given that the R1b-L151 MRCA, who from whom so many in Western and Central Europe descend, may not even have been born until the Early Bronze Age. This is a bit like finding a needle in a haystack.

    We'll have to view this from a super-conducting super-collider perspective. They smash atoms together and then look at the remnants of the collisions to see if they can figure out what happened.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-13-2017 at 02:49 PM.

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  16. #4329
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    Back to basics: P312 appears to have been branching for perhaps 400-500 years before Central European bell beaker culture existed and it did not come from the early Iberian beaker makers. So looking at the section of the P312 tree that covers the first 500 years only would be a good start. Can anyone produce that graphic? I am useless at that sort of thing. What does the tree of the pre-beaker phase of P312 from 3000-2500BC tell us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Back to basics: P312 appears to have been branching for perhaps 400-500 years before Central European bell beaker culture existed and it did not come from the early Iberian beaker makers. So looking at the section of the P312 tree that covers the first 500 years only would be a good start. Can anyone produce that graphic? I am useless at that sort of thing. What does the tree of the pre-beaker phase of P312 from 3000-2500BC tell us?
    Something like this?
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post272546

    ^^Click on the image twice, I think.
    R1b (aka M343) > M269 > L23 > L51 > L11 > P312 > DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 > Z17112 (S17075-, L644-)

    Archaeological cousin: 6DRIF-23 of Driffield Terrace Roman Cemetery, York (Z17112+, S17075+, L644-)

    Known ancestors: Francis Cooke (I-M223/I2a2a) b. 1583; John Wing (U106) b. 1584; Richard Warren (M269Hidden Content ) b.c. 1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b. 1583; John Mead b.c. 1634 (I2a1/P37.2)

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