Page 277 of 444 FirstFirst ... 177227267275276277278279287327377 ... LastLast
Results 2,761 to 2,770 of 4434

Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

  1. #2761
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,272
    Sex
    Location
    Carolina, N. America
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European mutt
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R-U152>>>FGC12384
    mtDNA
    H1

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Found this old map of R-M269+ R-L11- (middle map labeled R-xS127) from the Busby study. S127 = L11




    As this thread is 276 pages long, it may have already been posted and discussed, but I'll state the obvious (which has probably been said many times before).

    It's tempting to think L11 was born in the vicinity of the dark gray area over present day Romania and Bulgaria, living among his M269 cousins, and either he or his R-L11+ children went West while most of his male R-M269+ RxL11 relatives stayed behind.

    On that same map the higher percentage areas over the Northeast Black Sea coast and Levant, makes me wonder if Adyghe/Circassian men would be high in R-M269+ RxL11.
    FWIW, their homeland is within the ancient Maykop cultural boundaries.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-ethnic_en.svg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop...culture-en.svg
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 12-01-2016 at 01:49 AM.
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Gravetto-Danubian (02-04-2017), Power77 (12-02-2016)

  3. #2762
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,660
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    There has been a lot of y-dna water under the bridge since the 3rd or 4th millennium BC. The steppe is like a super highway into Europe. Many wanderers have taken that route in from the East, and tides of peoples have ebbed and flowed over it.

    I think it likely that L11 arose farther east than those modern maps would lead one to believe.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Kopfjäger (12-02-2016), MitchellSince1893 (12-02-2016), Power77 (12-02-2016)

  5. #2763
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,881
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    The main take-home from modern L23 in Europe IMO is that there is a Z2103 zone and and an L51 zone. Obviously not absolute but surprisingly clear.

    We of course should not try and project this division too far back because Z2103 was clearly as steppe lineage and very likely unknown west of the Dnieper or Dniester until Old Europe was collapsing. So essentially L23 probably had no distrubution at all in Europe outside the steppe until the fall of Old Europe and beyond.

    So why is there a fairly sharp division between Z2103 and L51 even after 5000 years or more? There are several options

    1. L51 is just a fluke founder effect where a guy from a minor lineage in a Z2103 population got very lucky as he headed further west than the rest

    2. L51 was the first L23 lineage to leave the steppes and Z2103 arrived in later waves and essentially overlaid and erased L51 in east-central and Balkans Europe.

    3. L51 actually left the steppes after Z2103 but leapfrogged it west.

    Linguistics may support the idea that L51 was an early branch off in that the earlier dialects on the branch like Celtic, Italic and perhaps Germanic are most associated with L51 (L11) while Z2103 is attested in Yamnaya and relatively strong in areas formerly held by Dacians, Thracians, Greeks, Armenians, Albanian, Romanian etc. I think (this only applies to the east to west spread of IEs) that the possibility that L51 was first to spread west and is associated with the earliest branching of the European IE tree seems high.

    Archaeologically we are hamstrung by not having any samples from the Ukraine from any steppe cultures of the period 4500-2600BC (if I recall correctly). We known that Z2103 dominated eastern Yamnaya but we have no idea if it dominated the Ukraine part of that culture. The linguistic associations today could suggest that Z2103 was not in western Yamnaya and not in the first wave to enter old Europe and that it was only later that Z2103 waves associated with later linguistic branches like Greek and perhaps most of the Palaeo-Balkans IE languages overlaid this area at L51's expense. If Z2103 was in the eastern part of Yamanaya then while L51 was in Ukraine Yamnaya then the latter could have initially blocked the former's expansion west. This wasnt the case to the east and to the south as ancient DNA has already noted Z2103 in the easternmost parts of Yamnaya.

    Basically we need ancient yDNA from the steppe overspill of Yamnaya into east-central Europe and the Balkans (and from Ukraine of course). Only that will tell us what L51's relation to Yamnaya was.

    There is one other undeniable implication in L51 and Z2103's distributions. L51 somehow developed the ability to expand beyond steppe-like lands in Old Europe and/or areas where Yamnaya culture spread. Z2103 in Europe looks more like a remnant (sometimes faint) of groups who never adapted to spread beyond the steppe-like areas that Yamnaya settled in.

    While there are multiple options for how the L51 and Z2103 settlements worked, what order they came in etc BUT there is no denying that L51 (primarily L11) clearly developed the ability to settle outside steppe-like lands or the areas Yamanaya is attested. We cant answer the 'when' precisely enough because of the gap (both chronological and geographical) in quality well resolved ancient yDNA samples between the eastern part of the Yamnaya steppes c. 3300-2900BC and central European beaker after c. 2600-2500BC. We can only say L51 (L11) likely arrived in central Europe between those dates.

    As to the why of this, L51 derivatives clearly had the ability to move much further into Europe than Z2103 generally could. This is almost certainly IMO indicative that L51 (L11) went through generations or centuries in contact with farmers and produced a substance strategy that took steppe and farming elements and blended them into a new system suitable for non-steppe like lands. That sounds awfully like Corded Ware but at present that is not a good fit from an ancient DNA perspective. However if not Corded Ware then surely in a culture where a similar blending of steppe and farming elements took place. You could probably draw a line showing the interface of steppe and farming around 3000BC and it is fairly likely that L51 (L11) spent time at the interface adapting.

    The final big hint of the L51 story is that it didnt do a lot until after the L11 SNP. So, short of a major wipeout event/bottleneck in the L51 story pruning most of the branches, L11 probably provides the date when L51 suddenly expanded. If L11 could be dated closely enough then we could easily make a very short shortlist of cultures which match a large expansion starting at that date.

  6. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Joe B (12-02-2016), Michał (12-02-2016), Mikewww (12-05-2016), MitchellSince1893 (12-02-2016), persian (12-02-2016), Power77 (12-02-2016), Pribislav (12-02-2016), rms2 (12-03-2016), WilliamAllan (12-02-2016)

  7. #2764
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,881
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There has been a lot of y-dna water under the bridge since the 3rd or 4th millennium BC. The steppe is like a super highway into Europe. Many wanderers have taken that route in from the East, and tides of peoples have ebbed and flowed over it.

    I think it likely that L11 arose farther east than those modern maps would lead one to believe.
    Its probably fair to say that European prehistory and post-Roman history has largely been a series of shunts from east to west. This view is sometimes criticised but essentially I think there is still a great deal of truth in this. So there are a lot of scenarios and many indications of shunting west and overlay/erasing from the east and hence I think in general today many yDNA distributions in Europe will be west of their positions and extents of the past, with the eastern part of their former extent largely erased. Off the beaten track, up mountains there may be exceptions but even there there has probably been several waves of refugees from the better lands fleeing the next wave of incomers.

  8. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Judith (12-03-2016), MitchellSince1893 (12-02-2016), Power77 (12-02-2016), rms2 (12-03-2016)

  9. #2765
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,881
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The main take-home from modern L23 in Europe IMO is that there is a Z2103 zone and and an L51 zone. Obviously not absolute but surprisingly clear.

    We of course should not try and project this division too far back because Z2103 was clearly as steppe lineage and very likely unknown west of the Dnieper or Dniester until Old Europe was collapsing. So essentially L23 probably had no distrubution at all in Europe outside the steppe until the fall of Old Europe and beyond.

    So why is there a fairly sharp division between Z2103 and L51 even after 5000 years or more? There are several options

    1. L51 is just a fluke founder effect where a guy from a minor lineage in a Z2103 population got very lucky as he headed further west than the rest

    2. L51 was the first L23 lineage to leave the steppes and Z2103 arrived in later waves and essentially overlaid and erased L51 in east-central and Balkans Europe.

    3. L51 actually left the steppes after Z2103 but leapfrogged it west.

    Linguistics may support the idea that L51 was an early branch off in that the earlier dialects on the branch like Celtic, Italic and perhaps Germanic are most associated with L51 (L11) while Z2103 is attested in Yamnaya and relatively strong in areas formerly held by Dacians, Thracians, Greeks, Armenians, Albanian, Romanian etc. I think (this only applies to the east to west spread of IEs) that the possibility that L51 was first to spread west and is associated with the earliest branching of the European IE tree seems high.

    Archaeologically we are hamstrung by not having any samples from the Ukraine from any steppe cultures of the period 4500-2600BC (if I recall correctly). We known that Z2103 dominated eastern Yamnaya but we have no idea if it dominated the Ukraine part of that culture. The linguistic associations today could suggest that Z2103 was not in western Yamnaya and not in the first wave to enter old Europe and that it was only later that Z2103 waves associated with later linguistic branches like Greek and perhaps most of the Palaeo-Balkans IE languages overlaid this area at L51's expense. If Z2103 was in the eastern part of Yamanaya then while L51 was in Ukraine Yamnaya then the latter could have initially blocked the former's expansion west. This wasnt the case to the east and to the south as ancient DNA has already noted Z2103 in the easternmost parts of Yamnaya.

    Basically we need ancient yDNA from the steppe overspill of Yamnaya into east-central Europe and the Balkans (and from Ukraine of course). Only that will tell us what L51's relation to Yamnaya was.

    There is one other undeniable implication in L51 and Z2103's distributions. L51 somehow developed the ability to expand beyond steppe-like lands in Old Europe and/or areas where Yamnaya culture spread. Z2103 in Europe looks more like a remnant (sometimes faint) of groups who never adapted to spread beyond the steppe-like areas that Yamnaya settled in.

    While there are multiple options for how the L51 and Z2103 settlements worked, what order they came in etc BUT there is no denying that L51 (primarily L11) clearly developed the ability to settle outside steppe-like lands or the areas Yamanaya is attested. We cant answer the 'when' precisely enough because of the gap (both chronological and geographical) in quality well resolved ancient yDNA samples between the eastern part of the Yamnaya steppes c. 3300-2900BC and central European beaker after c. 2600-2500BC. We can only say L51 (L11) likely arrived in central Europe between those dates.

    As to the why of this, L51 derivatives clearly had the ability to move much further into Europe than Z2103 generally could. This is almost certainly IMO indicative that L51 (L11) went through generations or centuries in contact with farmers and produced a substance strategy that took steppe and farming elements and blended them into a new system suitable for non-steppe like lands. That sounds awfully like Corded Ware but at present that is not a good fit from an ancient DNA perspective. However if not Corded Ware then surely in a culture where a similar blending of steppe and farming elements took place. You could probably draw a line showing the interface of steppe and farming around 3000BC and it is fairly likely that L51 (L11) spent time at the interface adapting.

    The final big hint of the L51 story is that it didnt do a lot until after the L11 SNP. So, short of a major wipeout event/bottleneck in the L51 story pruning most of the branches, L11 probably provides the date when L51 suddenly expanded. If L11 could be dated closely enough then we could easily make a very short shortlist of cultures which match a large expansion starting at that date.
    I suppose that in short the story of L51 is really the story of L11. Whatever the date of L11, expansion sudden occurred with it after many many centuries of L51 doing very little (or experiencing a wipeout event). So accurately date the L11 SNP and a lot could be inferred. I dont know what the best date for L11 is but I guess it pre-dates central European beaker by at least a few centuries so must have started to expand in pre-beaker times in central European terms.
    Last edited by alan; 12-02-2016 at 01:26 PM.

  10. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Michał (12-02-2016), MitchellSince1893 (12-02-2016), persian (12-02-2016), Power77 (12-02-2016), rms2 (12-03-2016)

  11. #2766
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,786
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R1b - Z220 A7066+
    mtDNA
    U4b1a2 - FGS

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Something happened in the LBK territory which caused a collapse and a rebound which seems to be linked to a mix of Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. If you look at the distribution of L11+ for example, it's almost exclusively north European in distribution, and we know that U106+ and P312+ aren't far removed from this location in likely point of origin. Due to the fact L51(xL11) and L11(xP312, xU106) aren't all that numerous it could be due to the fact they are part of the collapsed lineages rather than the recovery period. We have a relatively quick rebound shortly afterwards and pure growth period which accounts for U106 and P312 and their distributions to modern day.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 12-02-2016 at 03:07 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ADW_1981 For This Useful Post:

     Michał (12-02-2016), Power77 (12-02-2016)

  13. #2767
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,706
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+ L2+
    mtDNA
    H4a1

    United States of America Italy Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Found this old map of R-M269+ R-L11- (middle map labeled R-xS127) from the Busby study. S127 = L11

    As this thread is 276 pages long, it may have already been posted and discussed, but I'll state the obvious (which has probably been said many times before).

    It's tempting to think L11 was born in the vicinity of the dark gray area over present day Romania and Bulgaria, living among his M269 cousins, and either he or his R-L11+ children went West while most of his male R-M269+ RxL11 relatives stayed behind.

    On that same map the higher percentage areas over the Northeast Black Sea coast and Levant, makes me wonder if Adyghe/Circassian men would be high in R-M269+ RxL11.
    FWIW, their homeland is within the ancient Maykop cultural boundaries.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-ethnic_en.svg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop...culture-en.svg
    The problem is that map of R-M269+L11- represents, at minimum, three distinct branches all lumped together:

    M269+PF7558+
    L23+Z2103+
    L23+L51+Z2118+

    These three groups themselves have different STR variances.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 12-02-2016 at 06:07 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Michał (12-02-2016), MitchellSince1893 (12-02-2016), Power77 (12-02-2016), rms2 (12-03-2016)

  15. #2768
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,027
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Reporting back on the lecture on Bell Beaker by Volker Heyd this evening in Dorchester. The expected two aDNA papers on Bell Beaker have been delayed for the best possible reason. The two teams, one from Harvard and the other from Copenhagen, have agreed to amalgamate their results into one huge paper, which will give the results of over 200 samples. It is due to be published in a couple of months. Until then all the results are embargoed. Volker Heyd would only say that they are exciting.

    He would also prefer me not to divulge everything he said at the lecture on the archaeological side, since he has a paper coming out in the March issue of Antiquity on Bell Beaker; while in the same issue will be one by Kristiansen on Corded Ware. So I'll be brief. He went through the various theories of the origins of Bell Beaker: the Dutch model prevalent until the 1990s, the change wrought by the Muller and Van Willigen radiocarbon date compilation of 2001 and subsequent publications of early dates in Iberia, the various attempts to make sense of an Iberian origin. The problem of the latter and of the idea of a North African origin are the same in his view. There is no prior usage of cord in pottery decoration of either. So he sticks by the Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture proposed in Harrison and Heyd 2007. The icing on the cake lies in two significant new discoveries, which are not entirely published as yet.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-02-2016 at 10:39 PM. Reason: spelling correction

  16. The Following 30 Users Say Thank You to Jean M For This Useful Post:

     Bernard (12-04-2016), can't_lurk_no_mo' (12-03-2016), castle3 (12-03-2016), ChrisR (12-05-2016), David Mc (12-03-2016), Dewsloth (12-02-2016), dodona (03-08-2017), gotten (01-01-2017), Hairyman (12-05-2016), Il Papà (12-03-2016), Inigo Montoya (12-03-2016), jdean (12-03-2016), Jessie (12-03-2016), JonikW (12-03-2016), JRW (12-03-2016), Kelso (12-04-2016), Lugus (12-03-2016), Megalophias (12-02-2016), Michał (12-02-2016), Mikewww (12-05-2016), Mis (12-03-2016), MitchellSince1893 (12-03-2016), parasar (12-06-2016), Piquerobi (12-02-2016), rms2 (12-03-2016), T101 (12-05-2016), Tomenable (03-10-2017), wandering_amorite (12-03-2016), WilliamAllan (12-05-2016), Williamson (12-05-2016)

  17. #2769
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    653
    Sex
    Location
    United States
    Ethnicity
    LebaGermish
    Y-DNA
    P312>DF19>DF88>S4268
    mtDNA
    J2a1a1e

    United States of America Lebanon Germany England Scotland
    I know I already clicked "thank you," but THANK YOU!

    Now what shall we all argue about 'til Feb-March?
    R1b (aka M343) > M269 > L23 > L51 > L11 > P312 > DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 > Z17112 (S17075-, L644-)

    Archaeological cousin: 6DRIF-23 of Driffield Terrace Roman Cemetery, York (Z17112+, S17075+, L644-)

    Known ancestors: Francis Cooke (I-M223/I2a2a) b. 1583; John Wing (U106) b. 1584; Richard Warren (M269Hidden Content ) b.c. 1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b. 1583; John Mead b.c. 1634 (I2a1/P37.2)

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Dewsloth For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (12-03-2016)

  19. #2770
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,272
    Sex
    Location
    Carolina, N. America
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European mutt
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R-U152>>>FGC12384
    mtDNA
    H1

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Based on the comments from Jean M and rms2 in the other thread, http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post200568

    and Alan's detailed posts in this thread; I felt compelled to improve my understanding of the "Kurgan people".

    In the The three waves of the Kurgan People into Old Europe, 4500 -2500 BC by Gimbutas; I could see some of the R-M269+L11- in Romania and Bulgaria having as its source, the first (4400-4200 BC) and/or 2nd (3400-3200 BC) Kurgan wave, with R-L11 appearing in the 3rd Kurgan Wave (3000-2800 BC). The 2nd Kurgan Wave "was connected the North Pontic Majkop culture", while the 3rd wave was connected to Yamnaya culture.

    As was pointed out by others, L11 may have originated further East in Western Yamnaya and been a later arrival than his R-M269+L11- brethren.

    Some of you old-timers may remember this thread where we were calculating our EEF, WHG and ANE Admixture Proportions.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...re-Proportions

    At the time it baffled me why so many of us British ancestry types were getting close matches to Ukrainians. On the surface they seemed to have little in common.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post25205

    Maybe ancient ancestors from present day Ukraine had something to do with it.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 12-03-2016 at 04:07 AM.
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (12-03-2016)

Page 277 of 444 FirstFirst ... 177227267275276277278279287327377 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R-L21+ = Bell Beaker?
    By evon in forum R1b-L21
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-08-2015, 08:47 AM
  2. A deeper think about beakers and genes
    By alan in forum R1b General
    Replies: 581
    Last Post: 02-23-2015, 10:39 AM
  3. Conference of Jan Turek about Bell Beakers
    By Bernard in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-30-2013, 01:14 PM
  4. Bell Beaker Isotopes
    By dartraighe in forum General
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 06-01-2013, 11:43 PM
  5. Replies: 83
    Last Post: 05-27-2013, 04:51 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •