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Thread: Waves of migration into South Asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    FWIW, from a 2007 article:

    Chittpavan mulche Greekvanshiy (Chitpavan's are of Greek lineage)


    So which of their male lines is Greek?
    Chitpavan/Koknasth Brahmin
    670 kbr-01 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 15 25 10 11 13 10 9
    671 kbr-02 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 14 15 16 13 23 10 11 12 11 10
    672 kbr-03 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 11 10
    673 kbr-04 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M197 H1 14 13 18 13 22 10 11 12 11 11
    674 kbr-05 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 13 17 12 23 10 10 13 10 10
    675 kbr-06 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 15 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    676 kbr-07 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 14 16 16 14 22 10 11 13 11 10
    677 kbr-08 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 17 12 18 13 24 10 11 13 10 9
    678 kbr-09 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 18 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
    679 kbr-10 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M052 H1 14 13 18 13 22 11 11 12 11 11
    680 kbr-11 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 9
    681 kbr-12 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 9
    682 kbr-14 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 17 13 24 10 11 13 10 9
    683 kbr-16 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 9
    684 kbr-17 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 15 15 16 13 24 10 11 12 13 10
    685 kbr-19 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 16 13 25 10 11 13 10 9
    686 kbr-20 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 18 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
    687 kbr-21 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    688 kbr-23 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 10
    689 kbr-24 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 13 21 11 14 11 13 9
    690 kbr-25 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 14 14 16 13 24 10 11 12 12 10
    691 kbr-26 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    692 kbr-27 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    693 kbr-28 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European APT H2 15 12 16 14 21 9 11 13 11 10
    694 kbr-31 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 10
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...230/table/TB3/
    Nothing odd looking about those haplogroups - would have expected at least 1 E or R1b

    hmm maybe another concocted back-story to compete with the Desashtas who looked down on them

    They are strikingly fair skinned though even for Marathis - might be a higher West Asian autosomal component being maintained due to recent migration to Maharasthra from the NW - hence rocking the existing Brahmin boat who think of them as upstarts

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  3. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    Nothing odd looking about those haplogroups - would have expected at least 1 E or R1b

    hmm maybe another concocted back-story to compete with the Desashtas who looked down on them

    They are strikingly fair skinned though even for Marathis - might be a higher West Asian autosomal component being maintained due to recent migration to Maharasthra from the NW - hence rocking the existing Brahmin boat who think of them as upstarts
    Yes, garden variety distribution seen among Brahmans and others. Even G2a who one could argue is Anatolian Greek is absent in this dataset.

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    Chitpawan's have similar Y-DNA to south Indian Telugu Kamma group. L/R2/H1/H2 distribution however the autosomal component doesn't cluster together. Chitpawan match with other Brahman groups like Deasathas whereas Kamma match closer to Pakistani Bhatti, Gujjars, Khoja, Jaunpur Kshtriya, Nepali Tharus, Madras Chola lineage etc...

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    True

    Chitpawan's have similar Y-DNA to south Indian Telugu Kamma group. L/R2/H1/H2 distribution however the autosomal component doesn't cluster together. Chitpawan match with other Brahman groups like Deasathas whereas Kamma match closer to Pakistani Bhatti, Gujjars, Khoja, Jaunpur Kshtriya, Nepali Tharus, Madras Chola lineage etc...

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    In anticipation of the Rakhigarhi paper it is worth looking at the archaeology.
    http://asi.nic.in/pdf_data/rakhigarh...report_new.pdf

    ASI's take seems to be that the burials (Pages 132-164) follow vedic rituals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    FWIW, from a 2007 article:

    Chittpavan mulche Greekvanshiy (Chitpavan's are of Greek lineage)


    So which of their male lines is Greek?
    Chitpavan/Koknasth Brahmin
    670 kbr-01 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 15 25 10 11 13 10 9
    671 kbr-02 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 14 15 16 13 23 10 11 12 11 10
    672 kbr-03 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 11 10
    673 kbr-04 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M197 H1 14 13 18 13 22 10 11 12 11 11
    674 kbr-05 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 13 17 12 23 10 10 13 10 10
    675 kbr-06 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 15 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    676 kbr-07 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 14 16 16 14 22 10 11 13 11 10
    677 kbr-08 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 17 12 18 13 24 10 11 13 10 9
    678 kbr-09 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 18 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
    679 kbr-10 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M052 H1 14 13 18 13 22 11 11 12 11 11
    680 kbr-11 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 9
    681 kbr-12 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 9
    682 kbr-14 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 17 13 24 10 11 13 10 9
    683 kbr-16 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 9
    684 kbr-17 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 15 15 16 13 24 10 11 12 13 10
    685 kbr-19 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 16 13 25 10 11 13 10 9
    686 kbr-20 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 16 12 18 13 24 11 11 13 10 9
    687 kbr-21 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    688 kbr-23 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 10
    689 kbr-24 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M076 L1 14 12 16 13 21 11 14 11 13 9
    690 kbr-25 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M410 J2a 14 14 16 13 24 10 11 12 12 10
    691 kbr-26 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    692 kbr-27 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M124 R2 14 12 16 13 23 10 10 14 10 10
    693 kbr-28 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European APT H2 15 12 16 14 21 9 11 13 11 10
    694 kbr-31 kbr India West South Asia Caste-high Indo-European M017 R1a1 15 12 18 14 25 10 11 13 10 10
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...230/table/TB3/
    What do you think about APT-H2? According to wikipedia "The rare subclade H2-Apt has been found in 1.3% (1/77) of a sample of Greeks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    True

    Chitpawan's have similar Y-DNA to south Indian Telugu Kamma group. L/R2/H1/H2 distribution however the autosomal component doesn't cluster together. Chitpawan match with other Brahman groups like Deasathas whereas Kamma match closer to Pakistani Bhatti, Gujjars, Khoja, Jaunpur Kshtriya, Nepali Tharus, Madras Chola lineage etc...
    Those haplogroups are largely uniformal throughout caste groups all over India and usually contain Indian subhaplogroups - Brahmins have more R1a1a as a general rule

    What would be interesting is haplogroups outside R1a, R2, C, H, L, J2, O (Austro-Asiatic)

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    In anticipation of the Rakhigarhi paper it is worth looking at the archaeology.
    http://asi.nic.in/pdf_data/rakhigarh...report_new.pdf

    ASI's take seems to be that the burials (Pages 132-164) follow vedic rituals.
    Parasar, Id say it was the other way, Indo-Aryans became IVCized and/or possibly picked cultural traditions from the BMAC hence the peaceful mix and lack of evidence for an 'invasion' in Vedic records - these kind of burial practices wont be present in the Avesta IMO

    Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know much about burial practices

    Indo-Aryans would have seen the IVC people as a similar people to the BMAC when they arrived, from whom they had already picked up sizable West Asian DNA substrate and cultural input, so they genetically wouldn't have been a different race either

    This is why you see Munda and Dravidian in the Rg veda - cow worship/Pisupati is also IVC

    So basically Vedic Hinduism was already a syncretism as we know it

    Would be very interested in the religion of the Steppe Andronovo people - more emphasis on Dyauspitr Inder Agni etc

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    I have seen some reports of rare Y-DNA K2 and P among some isolated Kamma populations. TheSe are extremely rare iN India and go back to Last glacial period.

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    Steppe people would have pickup bits of religion from city states such as IVC over the time. There are cults of shamaNism all over Steppe. Whereas we see cults of Venus before 12k years all over. Bull worship and fertility cults you can find in IVC but also in far places like Old Europe Vinca etc places around 7000bc. So you can't claim uniqueness here. Vinca area has Haplogroup like F , H/H2, G2 found in India and also Sanskrit like language base but no R1

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