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Thread: Ancient Celt from Hinxton DF21+ Z246+

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    As the Y-tree presently stands, Hinxton 4 being DF25+, he could belong to any of the following known sub-clades of DF25: DF5, CTS3849, S4858 or S6189.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Cain View Post
    As the Y-tree presently stands, Hinxton 4 being DF25+, he could belong to any of the following known sub-clades of DF25: DF5, CTS3849, S4858 or S6189.
    You might have seen this blog post. It seems that some were a small close knit family cluster.

    How the Hinxtons are related to each other?
    Felix Chandrakumar
    October 31, 2014

    http://www.fc.id.au/2014/10/how-hinx...ach-other.html

    (See Charts in his post.)

    "Using Interpretome, based on compound segments below is how the Hinxtons are related.

    Based on the above tree, Hinxton-2 and Hinxton-5 are closely related. The ancestor of both is closely related to Hinxton-1 than Hinxton-3 and Hinxton-4.


    Excluding Hinxton-2, Hnxton-5 and both reveals, Hinxton-1 is closely related to Hinxton-5 and Hinxton-3 is closely related to Hinxton-2. Hinxton-4 is the most distantly related.

    Combining the above data, below is how they are truly related, showing pedigree collapse in the hinxton's family tree.

    Based on Runs of Homozygosity, we know the following.

    •Hinxton-2 parents are first cousins.
    •Hinxton-3 parents are first or second cousins.
    •Hinxton-5 parents are half siblings.

    We know that Hinxton-2, Hinxton-3 and Hinxton-5 are all females, while Hinxton-1 and Hinxton-4 are males. Hinxton-2, Hinxton-3 and Hinxton-5 are not related to each other in genealogical timeframe."

    Also
    http://www.y-str.org/2014/10/hinxton-dna.html

    MJost
    Last edited by MJost; 12-02-2014 at 03:19 PM.
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1’s father’s sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    While there are DF21 results from England, they are few and far between compared with results from Ireland and Scotland. The nearest DF21 group to Hinxton may be the Lyon group from Middlesex, who are the DF5 clade of Z246.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory Cain View Post
    While there are DF21 results from England, they are few and far between compared with results from Ireland and Scotland. The nearest DF21 group to Hinxton may be the Lyon group from Middlesex, who are the DF5 clade of Z246.
    Probably the y-dna situation in AD 1 was a lot different than it is now. What is now SE England ("Angle-land") was British (that is, Celtic) territory back then and probably loaded with L21. Maybe most of it in the Cambridgeshire area and the land of the Catuvellauni was DF21. The arrival of the Anglo-Saxons en masse starting in the immediate post-Roman Period changed all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Probably the y-dna situation in AD 1 was a lot different than it is now. What is now SE England ("Angle-land") was British (that is, Celtic) territory back then and probably loaded with L21. Maybe most of it in the Cambridgeshire area and the land of the Catuvellauni was DF21. The arrival of the Anglo-Saxons en masse starting in the immediate post-Roman Period changed all that.
    No doubt things are different some 2,000 years later. The Lyon ancestor, John de Lyoun 1225-1294 is about midway between now and AD 1. In addition to change, there is often continuity. perhaps the DF21+ Lyons of Middlesex represent some small degree of continuity. If so, that continuity is possibly stengthened by the two Celtic Hinxton males. The case for (some) continuity is also supported by a paper presented by Arthur Gray: On the Late Survival of a Celtic Population in East Anglia, http://www.cantabnet/users/michael.b..._survival.html

    Gray presents evidence of a population either speaking Welsh or racially identified as Welsh even in this most germanic part of "England". I won't say "Anglo-Saxon" part of "England", as it was within the Danelaw. "England" had shrunk down to Wessex about this time, under Aethelred the Unready. Interestingly, in 991, Aethelred and the Danes each undertook not to abet the Welshmen. From the evidence that Gray present, these are not passport-carrying citizens of Wales, but native Britons living in "England" and/ or the Danelaw. In his coverage of native Britons living there, Gray mentions Lincolnshire, Huntingdon and Cambridge, the country where Hinxton is situated.

    Gray notes that the Doomsday Book shows an east-west cline in the number of serfs, highest in the west and lowest in the east. He believes that this represents the native Briton population. He also gives an instance of a provincial king who bears an anglicised name but is identified by popular sources as a Welshman (Briton). So some Welshmen (Britons) also remained at higher social levels than that of self. Therefore it remains possible that the few DF21+ samples we have from gland generally, and from the southeast especially, may nonetheless represent some small degree of continuity with its past population.

    As for attributing DF21 to specific British tribes, that remains difficult. I am not aware of any evidence that would make the Catuvellauni DF21+, but am amenable to being educated. One theory regarding the founders of the DF21+ Airghialla in south Ulster is that they were Trinovantes from Colchester, Essex, a county bordering Cambridgeshire. Personally I am waiting for more evidence before attributing DF21+ status to either of these tribes, but I don't deny the possibility exists.

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    Of course, I did not say the entire tribe of the Catuvellauni was DF21+, but we do know of at least one ancient man who was DF21+ (and DF25+) and likely a member of that tribe. There may have been more, and it is even possible most Catuvellauni males were DF21+ (although, obviously, we don't know that for sure).

    I don't think it is any great revelation that Britons survived everywhere in what is now England. After all, the frequency of L21 is still fairly substantial in eastern and southeastern England. About 12% is its lowest ebb anywhere, according to Busby, and that came at Myres "Central England" sample location. At Myres' "Southeast England" sample location (utilized in Busby), the L21 frequency was 15.4%.

    Of course, in terms of L21 in the Isles, the frequencies in eastern England are the lowest anywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Of course, I did not say the entire tribe of the Catuvellauni was DF21+, but we do know of at least one ancient man who was DF21+ (and DF25+) and likely a member of that tribe. There may have been more, and it is even possible most Catuvellauni males were DF21+ (although, obviously, we don't know that for sure).

    I don't think it is any great revelation that Britons survived everywhere in what is now England. After all, the frequency of L21 is still fairly substantial in eastern and southeastern England. About 12% is its lowest ebb anywhere, according to Busby, and that came at Myres "Central England" sample location. At Myres' "Southeast England" sample location (utilized in Busby), the L21 frequency was 15.4%.

    Of course, in terms of L21 in the Isles, the frequencies in eastern England are the lowest anywhere.
    We are talking about DF21, not L21. DF21 is a smallest percentage of L21. From early and very optimistic estimates of 20 %, I think current estimates of DF21 has shrunk to about half that. So even if L21 was the majority haplotype of southeast England at one time, we cannot say the same thing about DF21. To covert your L21 percentages to DF21, we would probably move the decimal point one step to the left, creating DF21 percentages of 1.2% and 1.54% respectively.

    Unless, and this was probably the case, as it is now, that the distribution of DF21 within the L21 gene pool was not uniformly distributed, but had hotspots in Britain as it does in say south Ulster and the belt from Co Laois through east Co Galway. There would not appear to be enough DF21 information coming out of England to ID such a hotspot there, and perhaps due to race change we can no longer do so. I appreciate that you have tried to do your best with very limited information. However if that's all we have to work with, we are in serious need of further information, IMHO.

    We are hampered by the present lack of information on DF21, and the use of L21 data to draw inferences regarding DF21 as you have done may well be the only tool available at present.

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    But you did talk about the survival of Britons in East Anglia, and that means you were not just talking about DF21, unless you were arguing they were all DF21+ and just didn't say so.

    As you said, we don't have much info on the frequency of DF21 is SE England, but we do know that at least one of those two ancient Celts from Hinxton was DF21+. Chances are he wasn't alone in that.

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    Is the DF21 SNP directly below DF13?

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    I cannot recall of the top of my head all the details of which tribes in SE England opposed and which became clients of the Romans. I suppose the elites like the Iceni who opposed would have likely been pretty wiped out or scattered by the Roman military machine while those who were friendly like the Atrebates, Dumnoni Dubbuni and others may have survived intact. Such was the power of the Romans that you either had to submit, die or retreat. This gives an interesting summary of relations between British tribes and the Romans

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient.../iron_01.shtml

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