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Thread: R1b-BY166 (L21>DF13>DF41>BY166) and Cluster 41-1123

  1. #1
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    Smile R1b-BY166 (L21>DF13>DF41>BY166) and Cluster 41-1123

    I thought I would start this thread about my own subclade and cluster under DF41. It may mean me talking to myself more than anything else, but perhaps someone else might chime in from time to time.

    Short Tandem Repeat (STR) haplotype cluster 41-1123 is characterized by the following marker values: 390=23; 385=11-11; 447<=24; 464b=16; 534<=14; 413a<=22. The following values are also usually found in the cluster but not always: 458=16 and 439<=11. I wish I could say I was the first one to spot my own cluster, but I wasn't. Rick Arnold noticed it way back several years ago when we were all over on the old, now-defunct dna forums.

    As a result of the comparison of the Big Y results of two of our members, 19 new SNPs have been discovered downstream of DF41/CTS2501. Since these two members are 10 apart at 67 markers and 17 apart at 111 markers, it is likely that all of us in cluster 41-1123 share these SNPs. One of these new SNPs, 08487637T>G, has been christened BY166 by Family Tree DNA. It has been chosen to characterize a new subclade downstream of DF41 and is parallel to the other currently known DF41+ SNPs.

    I have BY166 on order from FTDNA, but it's a recent order: no results yet.

    So far most of us in the cluster are brickwalled in North America. Only three of us are able to trace our y-dna lines to Europe. One of those, Samuel, kit N104746, has an mdka who was born in Llanafan-fawr, Wales, in the 17th century. The second, Self, kit 53479, traces his mdka to Melksham, Wiltshire, in SW England, also in the 17th century. Samuel and Self are the two members of our cluster with the Big Y results and so are BY166+. Samuel is one of my closest matches, 105/111, as well. The third able to trace his mdka to Europe is Beddoes, which is a Welsh surname. His mdka comes from right along the Welsh border in Shropshire. That area used to be part of Wales. I do not know Beddoes' kit number. Beddoes matches me 65/67.

    Melksham in Wiltshire is not all that far from the Welsh border, and the surname Self has a Welsh surname that looks and sounds very similar: Selyf.

    The surnames in the cluster thus far are as follows:

    Beddoes
    Chorn
    Cooper
    Dugger
    Mayson
    Price
    Samuel
    Self
    Stephens
    Stevens
    Webb

    The surnames Beddoes, Price, and Samuel are Welsh. Stephens/Stevens is also a Welsh surname, but it is found in England, Ireland, and Scotland, as well. In this case, I think it is safe to regard it as Welsh, however, since our closest matches (I am a Stevens) either trace their mdkas to Wales or have Welsh surnames.

    Cooper is an occupational English surname, but our Cooper is a 66/67 match for Self.

    Dugger is, I believe, a Scots surname.

    Mayson is believed to be an English surname of Norman origin. I do not know if that is true or not.

    Webb is an English occupational surname. It is very common in Shropshire. In fact, the very first documented instance of a man swimming the English Channel was a Webb from Shropshire: Matthew Webb.

    So there you have it: pretty much what we know thus far. The 41-1123 cluster appears to have as its geographic locus Wales and perhaps SW England, but Dugger is a Scots surname, so there is the possibility of a more general Brythonic connection.

    We have our own little FTDNA project here. I have not yet succeeded in getting all of the members of the cluster to join.
    Last edited by rms2; 10-05-2014 at 08:13 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  3. #2
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    I mentioned above that I think the surname Dugger is of Scots origin, but that is not really clear. I have since read that it can be French, an Americanized version of Dugard, or German, as well. So, anyway, that one is up in the air. The rest of the members of the cluster are either of Isles origin or have Isles surnames, so I find the French or German origin stories doubtful in the case of our cluster's Dugger. Our Dugger is a 107/111 match for Self, so there is a very close connection between Self, Dugger, and Cooper.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  4. #3
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    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland

    Got my BY166+ result this morning.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     David Mc (10-13-2014)

  6. #4
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    I have written once again to the members of the 41-1123 cluster who are not yet members of the R1b-41-1123 Project urging them to join. I heard from one of them saying he tried to join but had a technical problem doing it. I wrote back with step-by-step instructions on how to join. He hasn't joined yet, but I'm still hoping he will.

    I have not heard from the others yet.

    Sigh . . .
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  7. #5
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    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland

    You can see the position of BY166 beneath DF41 on the left side of Mike Walsh's excellent R1b-L21 Descendant Tree Chart here.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     dp (10-14-2014), Táltos (10-13-2014)

  9. #6
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    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland

    Mayson, kit 140321, just joined the R1b-41-1123 Project.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  10. #7
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    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Another possible surname in our cluster is Kendle. I did not include it in the list in the OP above because it is based on a 37-marker match (he matches me 35/37) rather than on 67 markers or more. I have tried to get this particular Kendle to upgrade to 67 or more markers and/or to test for DF41, but thus far to no avail. I do believe he belongs in our cluster, however.

    The surname Kendle (more commonly spelled Kendall) is supposed to be taken from the market town of Kendal in Cumbria.

    Kendal, Cumbria
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  11. #8
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    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I ran all the 111-marker haplotypes in the R1b-41-1123 Project through McGee's Utility (FTDNA 111 mode) and got a TMRCA range of about 470 AD to 920 AD (i.e., 1,530 years to 1,080 years, comparing 95% probability and 50% probability runs). That's for the whole set, of course, Many of us within the cluster are related within genealogical time, although we don't yet know exactly how.

    Now it's time to do like just about everyone else and find some king to claim as our y-dna ancestor.
    Last edited by rms2; 10-12-2014 at 09:10 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     dp (10-14-2014)

  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Another possible surname in our cluster is Kendle. I did not include it in the list in the OP above because it is based on a 37-marker match (he matches me 35/37) rather than on 67 markers or more. I have tried to get this particular Kendle to upgrade to 67 or more markers and/or to test for DF41, but thus far to no avail. I do believe he belongs in our cluster, however.

    The surname Kendle (more commonly spelled Kendall) is supposed to be taken from the market town of Kendal in Cumbria.

    Kendal, Cumbria
    Kendle has joined the R1b-41-1123 Project.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     David Mc (10-13-2014)

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Got my BY166+ result this morning.
    Big congratulations... and I hope you see more samples being added to your branch soon.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to David Mc For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (10-14-2014)

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