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Thread: Indo European(ization)

  1. #21
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    The Wiki article is interesting on the subject of pre-German substrate

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani...ate_hypothesis

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Ken still calls L233, Alpine
    while others further down are L485 ( western ) and L343 ( Flanders)

    Interesting that he has not forgo Alpine

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b17.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Ken still calls L233, Alpine
    No I don't think so. It looks like Alpine is a side branch off the main L233 line, without its own SNP as yet. It must be difficult to display all the data on one tree. But "L333" is above the main line leading to Western, not on the line underneath leading to Alpine.
    Last edited by Jean M; 04-01-2014 at 12:27 PM.

  4. #24
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    Yes, my I2a1c is L233 and it is not Alpine. Maybe Alpine is Parent, I don't know, but the L233 offshoot is not Alpine, you are correct. As a matter of fact I2a1 "Alpine" has never been found in Britain, ever, at least as of yet :-). My current understanding of my I2a1c L223 is that I imagine it can be considered an "Anglo-Saxon" Subclade when it Britain. This is because it came with the "Germanic" migrations of the Dark Ages, and this Subclade has its' origin on the North German Plain. Perhaps it was "Pre-Germanic" in that sense, but technically I1a, a major Marker associated with Germanic groups, is also "Pre-Germanic"/"Pre Indo-European", and was later incorporated into Germanic culture.
    Paternal Haplogroup: I2a1c (Ancestor: Albert I Lee (Family surname was "Brooks" prior to the British-Boer War II) / Born: 1900-Middlesbrough Yorkshire, England)

    Maternal Haplogroup: J2a1 (Ancestor: Maria B. Cavallini / Born: 1893-Livorno, Tuscany, Italy)

    Places Of Ancestry: Yorkshire, England/ Durham, England/ Lancashire, England/ Abruzzo, Italy/ Campania, Italy/ Tuscany, Italy

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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    That's right. It absorbed a lot of vocabulary from a non-IE farming language that I presume was spoken in Funnel Beaker.



    There may be words absorbed from hunter-gatherer I1 people in the north, but I2a1* looks more likely to have been picked up from farmers. There are too many unknown factors here to be certain.
    Were these farmers from the Funnel Beaker mostly of Near Eastern origin or of indigenous Mesolithic hunter gatherers who took up farming? I ask because I am wondering what YDNA I originated from.

  7. #26
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    There was a fascinating book you may want to pick up, reviewed in 2012 or 2013 by the Economist. The title was called something like "The Germans." It was hailed as an incredibly well-synthesized history of Germanic origins. I wish I remembered more.

    Anyway, the author does an exhaustive review of linguistic and archaeological evidence. Posits that there was a pre-IE substrate living in and around the Baltic, so N Germany and S Scandinavia. The author details how almost all words for seafaring in German are non-IE, but almost all words for farming are IE.

    Putting what we know of Hg frequency overlaying her very well researched archaeological and linguistic conclusions, it would make sense that R1a and other IEs mixed with these I1 and I2 natives. Her description (again based on other evidence) fit quite neatly into what many of you have posted here.

    So to answer the question: which Hg is uniquely "German?" I see the point: German of course in an IE language. But it is totally possible that the root stock of much of the German population was I1 and I2, and became Indo-Europeanized.

    Regardless, that branch that is found in Germany and made its way to England, even if not an IE German-SPEAKING branch originally, is now a marker of the population that speaks German. I hope that makes sense.

  8. #27
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    Does anyone know how old I-S1954 is? This has been claimed to be an Anglo Saxon marker, but it does not appear in Schleswig-Holstein. It does appear in Denmark, NE Germany N. Poland, Netherlands and Lower Saxony.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillMC View Post
    Does anyone know how old I-S1954 is?
    YFull uses the alternate name I-YSC261. YFull estimates that it diverged from its sibling I-Z2538 about 4200 years ago, but examples of I-YSC261 encountered so far have a TMRCA of only 3400 years. Its only direct child clade is I-L338.

  10. #29
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    When ScotlandsDNA told me that my DNA marker is I-S1954 - they said that it was an 'Anglo Saxon' one. Looks like its been around for a lot longer than that.

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    There was a fascinating book you may want to pick up, reviewed in 2012 or 2013 by the Economist. The title was called something like "The Germans." It was hailed as an incredibly well-synthesized history of Germanic origins.
    Peter Schrijver, Language Contact and the Origins of the Germanic Languages (Routledge Studies in Linguistics) 13 Dec 2013. ??

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