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Thread: Indo European(ization)

  1. #11
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    FTDNA calls it I2a3a, and yes, I see on ISOGG it is still I2a1c. Yes, I carry L233.

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    Yes, L233 (I2a1c) is not Alpine. It is found at a low frequency in England, Scotland, Germany, France, and Holland. TMRCA Dating says as of 150 A.D., it was still localized to the North Sea coast of Germany.

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    Right, so maybe a better way to ask this question, is would pre-Germanic Haplogroups, like I2a1 and I1, etc., that later become "Germanic" or associated with Germanic speaking peoples, simply have been subsumed or absorbed into the Germanic culture, language, and society of the later eras? Im asking because I dont quite get it. I am I2a1, regardless of the Subclade, and since my Branch arrived in Britain in the Dark Ages influxes, it is referred to as "Anglo Saxon". No P37.2 has been found that I know of in Scandinavia, so it isnt Viking, and my Autosomal DNA reflects no Scandinavian influence. For the record, this is my Dads side, whose origins are in Durham and Yorkshire. The I2a1c comes to me through the Brooks surname in Yorkshire. I2a1 in Germany is obviously very much so pre Germanic, as it is found in Neolithic remains in France, etc. So how did it become "Germanic" on this Subclade level is what I am saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barellalee View Post
    Yes, L233 (I2a1c) is not Alpine. It is found at a low frequency in England, Scotland, Germany, France, and Holland. TMRCA Dating says as of 150 A.D., it was still localized to the North Sea coast of Germany.
    Thanks. I have nothing about that subclade on my haplogroup I page, so I'm pleased to learn. Looks Germanic as you say.

    So how did it become "Germanic" on this Subclade level is what I am saying.
    If I2a1 was picked up by Pre-Proto-Germanic speakers as they integrated with Funnel Beaker farmers c. 2500 BC, then the L233 mutation could easily have cropped up in the rump of the group which had developed Proto-Germanic in northern Germany c. 500 BC. The rump developed Western Germanic after the groups split away which developed East Germanic and Norse. English, Dutch and German belong in the Western Germanic family.
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-31-2014 at 05:55 PM.

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    Thank you, that makes sense. So the "Pre Germanic" speakers of that territory, which is without doubt who the I2a1s there were, would most likely belonged originally to Funnelbeaker or Gravettian cultures I take it, like you said. Interestingly, there was someone on this site who commented on my Thread "I2a3a" who is from Lower Saxony and is L233. He said most of his "matches" have been people in England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barellalee View Post
    So the "Pre Germanic" speakers of that territory, which is without doubt who the I2a1s there were, would most likely belonged originally to Funnelbeaker
    Forgive me if I get technical. Pre-Proto-Germanic is the term linguists use for the people who started off speaking a dialect of Indo-European which eventually would become Proto-Germanic. Looks like you are thinking of the people that this group encountered as they moved north. Here's a map: Click to enlarge.

    GermanicRoute.jpg

    Linguists usually work out the place that a language developed by contacts with other languages. Germanic has an amazing number of such contacts. Picture a journey starting in the Indo-European homeland, in contact with the dialect that would become Proto-Balto-Slavic, then breaking right away from that contact and spending a long time in closer contact with the developing Proto-Celtic. Germanic picked up a lot of vocabulary from a non-Indo-European farming language, which was probably spoken by the Funnel Beaker people. They farmed a large region right up into southern Scandinavia, before the arrival of Indo-European type graves and artefacts, which archaeologists generally label the Corded Ware culture. So we follow Corded Ware into southern Scandinavia. There our group lost contact with Celtic, but encountered hunters and fishermen speaking non-Indo-European languages. Then the climate changed for the worse around 700 BC, forcing farmers south out of Scandinavia into what is now northern Germany and Poland. There they met the iron-working Celts expanding northwards. This was presumably the time in which Proto-Germanic borrowed the Celtic words for 'iron' and 'king'. Here it seems they finally developed Proto-Germanic.

    or Gravettian cultures
    Gravettian is much earlier. It had long gone by then.
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-31-2014 at 07:38 PM.

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    Oh I see what you mean. Well I guess it shall remain a mystery for the moment. Maybe I2a1 would more likely fit into the Gravettian than Funnelbeaker. Who knows. I don't think there is that much P37.2 in Germany as it is, I2a1c being one of the lineages of it present there. That makes it even more complicated. Maybe there were, but I'm unaware of any other P37.2 groups connected to Germanic languages.
    Paternal Haplogroup: I2a1c (Ancestor: Albert I Lee (Family surname was "Brooks" prior to the British-Boer War II) / Born: 1900-Middlesbrough Yorkshire, England)

    Maternal Haplogroup: J2a1 (Ancestor: Maria B. Cavallini / Born: 1893-Livorno, Tuscany, Italy)

    Places Of Ancestry: Yorkshire, England/ Durham, England/ Lancashire, England/ Abruzzo, Italy/ Campania, Italy/ Tuscany, Italy

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    Gravettian was 28,000–22,000 years ago. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravettian

    Haplogroup I* (L41) is estimated to be some 25,000 years old. So I* could fit in Gravettian.

    Haplogroup I2* (M438) has been found in Mesolithic Europe c. 6000 BC, though the particular samples from ancient DNA were of lineages that did not survive.

    Haplogroup I2a1 (P37.2/PF4004) has been found in Neolithic Europe c. 3000 BC.
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-31-2014 at 08:21 PM.

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    I think from archaeology, IE settlers in say north Germany or Denmark would likely have encountered very similar migrant Neolithic cultures as they would have in the isles. So, its not likely the migrant Neolithic farmer element in the mix that caused a difference in pre-IE substrate. It may be that hunter gatherer genes got absorbed by the newly arriving farmers on a bigger scale than in the isles though and that may have made the Neolithic genepool rather different. I think the best evidence of this is the very slow increase in the importance of agriculture after its first arrival in agriculturally marginal area of Scandinavia. Also important is the fact that a lot of Scandinavia except the southern fringe was not settled by TRB farmers and was occupied by Pit Comb Ware hunter gatherers and others. My reading of the archaeology suggests to me that the peculiar non-farming substrate which IE settlers would have encountered in what is now Germanic Europe would have increased from south to north and maybe a lot of the oddness in Germanic was acquired not during the Corded Ware phase (when settlement tended to be mainly similar in macro distribution to the TRB farmers) but in the Nordic Bronze Age when a wider area of the north was incorporated. After all proto-Germanic is rather late in date (c. end of the Bronze Age) and there was nearly 2500 years between the arrival of corded ware and proto-Germanic - plenty of time to absorb ususual substrates.

    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    If proto-Germanic arose on the northern fringe of Europe, and proto-Celtic arose in central or western Europe, proto-Germanic would have been more directly exposed to pre-Indo-European farmer and/or hunter-gatherer languages at the northern fringe of Europe. Perhaps the greater frequency of mtDNA U4 and U5 in norhteastern Europe might be an indicator of a non-Indo-Eurpean matneral influence on proto-Germanic?

    Have any studies been done of words that might be specifically associated with hunting and gathering activities to see if these vary among Indo-European lanaguages?

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