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Thread: Indo European(ization)

  1. #1
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    Indo European(ization)

    As my particular Subclade of Haplogroup I, Subclade I2a3a, arrived in Britain with the Dark Ages migrations, it is seen as referred to an "Anglo Saxon" Haplotype. As such, whoever it arrived with from the Continent, as it DID arrive from the North German Plain, were just about certainly speakers of a Germanic language. I2a3a, emerging from I2a1c, represented the old P37.2s who had settled northwest Germany in what were probably pre Germanic times, and no doubt anyway, I2a1 is a pre Indo European Haplogroup. As such, how would one expct this worked?? Would the later Indo European Germanic speaking groups have absorbed previous folks like my I2a1 ancestors in their German territories, to the point where by the Dark Ages, some I2a1s would have been parts of Germanic ethnic groups and thus "Germanic". On that note, I believe I1 is pre Indo European as well, yet it is recognized as a VERY Germanic lineage. Is this because pre Indo European I1s of Germany and Scandinavia were "absorbed" into Germanic speaking societies the same way??

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barellalee View Post
    I2a3a, emerging from I2a1c
    Looks like some confusion. I2a3a does not exist. If it did, it would not be below any form of I2a1. Instead I2a1 and I2a3 would be parallel. What is the SNP?

    http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html

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    It is newly called I2a3a, it was called I2a Western before. It's P37.2, and Downstream is L233. Other than a low frequency in England, it's found where it came from, the North German Plain. Most Germans testing positive for L233 that I've seen are from Lower Saxony. My Dad's from Yorkshire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barellalee View Post
    It is newly called I2a3a, it was called I2a Western before. It's P37.2.
    Newly called by whom? ISOGG, to which I linked, has P37.2/PF4004 = I2a1. L233 = I2a1c. Do you carry L233?

    All I know about I2a1* is on this page: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/haplogroupi.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Newly called by whom? ISOGG, to which I linked, has P37.2/PF4004 = I2a1. L233 = I2a1c. Do you carry L233?

    All I know about I2a1* is on this page: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/haplogroupi.shtml
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-09/1347782616

    Ken N ........talks about it as well as others .................but it seems alpine
    I2a* "Alpine" is now part of a new I2a3 (or usingISOGG tree, I2a1* Alpine is part of a new I2a1c)

    Also in a Ftdna project

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b17.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    That was in 2012. Looks like I2a3 was new then, but has gone now.

    I2a1* Alpine is part of a new I2a1c
    I2a1* cannot be part of I2a1c. I2a1 is the parent of I2a1c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    That was in 2012. Looks like I2a3 was new then, but has gone now.



    I2a1* cannot be part of I2a1c. I2a1 is the parent of I2a1c.
    bold is copied from the link...not my idea.

    But, IIRC kenN, stated a year or so ago.... this marker furthest easterly line was ........run down a line from Innsbruck to Venice and head west


    BTW, there is a link to a Z93 map there with zero found in central asia........but then that was end of 2012
    Last edited by vettor; 03-31-2014 at 10:21 AM.

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b17.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    One thing I think that is interesting in terms of the high I among Germanic speakers is that Germanic is something of a basket case of a language - one of the most odd of all IE languages with a great deal of vocab that is non-typical for IEs and is either thought to be non-IE or requires very tangential tentative reconstructions using IE words. Either way it is an oddball branch of IE. People tend to think Proto-Germanic would be nearer to the IE core and Celtic peripheral but in fact proto-Celtic has a far lower percentage of potentially non-IE/very non-typical IE vocab.

    One way or other I think proto-Germanic's formation history was clearly different from most other branches of IE. Is this because it absorbed a lot of I? If so, did it absorb this I locally or was it absorbed in the Carpathians etc en-route to what would become the Germanic zone. Either way, it is an IE language branch where a lot of non-R males were absorbed and this contrasts with significant sections of the Celtic world where (if you subtract likely latter comers) it would seem R men were rather less keen on being inclusive with non-R lines.

    One possibility is that Celtic appears to be obsessive with male lines of descent and clans etc. In the migration period Germanic seems to have established a kind of pattern that differed from this - the idea of a war band who were not necessarily related gathering around the hall of a warrior chief who redistributed booty for loyalty. You could call it a thuggish meritocracy of a kind. I believe this probably emerged no earlier than the last century or so BC in response to the conditions of that period when opportunities for military service either raiding against or supporting the Roman empire existed. Before then I am not sure the conditions existed where this was a likely social structure and AFAIK Germanic Europe was an impoverished area in pre-Roman empire Iron Age times.

    You could say strong elements of this remained in the Feudal system of the high Medieval period when knights were basically landless warriors of various backgrounds until the king bestowed lands on the lucky few allowing them to begin their own dynasties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Germanic is something of a basket case of a language - ... with a great deal of vocab that is non-typical for IEs
    That's right. It absorbed a lot of vocabulary from a non-IE farming language that I presume was spoken in Funnel Beaker.

    Is this because it absorbed a lot of I?
    There may be words absorbed from hunter-gatherer I1 people in the north, but I2a1* looks more likely to have been picked up from farmers. There are too many unknown factors here to be certain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    One thing I think that is interesting in terms of the high I among Germanic speakers is that Germanic is something of a basket case of a language - one of the most odd of all IE languages with a great deal of vocab that is non-typical for IEs and is either thought to be non-IE or requires very tangential tentative reconstructions using IE words. Either way it is an oddball branch of IE. People tend to think Proto-Germanic would be nearer to the IE core and Celtic peripheral but in fact proto-Celtic has a far lower percentage of potentially non-IE/very non-typical IE vocab. One way or other I think proto-Germanic's formation history was clearly different from most other branches of IE. Is this because it absorbed a lot of I?
    If proto-Germanic arose on the northern fringe of Europe, and proto-Celtic arose in central or western Europe, proto-Germanic would have been more directly exposed to pre-Indo-European farmer and/or hunter-gatherer languages at the northern fringe of Europe. Perhaps the greater frequency of mtDNA U4 and U5 in norhteastern Europe might be an indicator of a non-Indo-Eurpean matneral influence on proto-Germanic?

    Have any studies been done of words that might be specifically associated with hunting and gathering activities to see if these vary among Indo-European lanaguages?

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