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Thread: High levels of R1a1 and G2 in Shammar Bedouins

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    Jordan Jabal Shammar Yemen Adygea Iraq

    Arrow High levels of R1a1 and G2 in Shammar Bedouins

    The Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)—with a small percentage of G2 (4.76%). A historical explanation could be that the Shimar trace their origins to two regions: Iraq (Philby, 1923) and Saudi Arabia. The Shimar resided in northern Najd—currently in Saudi Arabia—after their migration during pre-Islamic times from Taye in Yemen. Their migration to the North into Iraq ended during the 17th century CE (Subahai, 1996; Khuraysi, 1998; Williamson and Basri, 1999). As they settled in Iraq, the Shimar gave up nomadism and became urbanized in towns and cities—most notably in Mosul (Khuraysi, 1998). It is said that the Shimar are now of two main antecedents—Iraqi Shimar and Saudi Shimar—and each refers to itself as ‘the Noble Tribe’ (personal communication, Shimar of Kuwait). The haplogroup R1a1-M17 is found at substantial frequency in Iraq, so limited gene flow or subsequent drift (or both) could account for its presence in the Shimar—although later migrations, slavery and trade provide alternative explanation


    It seems that the Shammar R1a1 matches with that of the Ashkenazi Jews rather than with Iranic speakers. However J1 being dominant shows the tribes origins in Arabia and where it claims it descent from Yemen. Interestingly that Shammaris are autosomally the same as Yemenite Jews despite the high levels of so called Indo-European DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanson View Post
    The Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)—with a small percentage of G2 (4.76%). A historical explanation could be that the Shimar trace their origins to two regions: Iraq (Philby, 1923) and Saudi Arabia. The Shimar resided in northern Najd—currently in Saudi Arabia—after their migration during pre-Islamic times from Taye in Yemen. Their migration to the North into Iraq ended during the 17th century CE (Subahai, 1996; Khuraysi, 1998; Williamson and Basri, 1999). As they settled in Iraq, the Shimar gave up nomadism and became urbanized in towns and cities—most notably in Mosul (Khuraysi, 1998). It is said that the Shimar are now of two main antecedents—Iraqi Shimar and Saudi Shimar—and each refers to itself as ‘the Noble Tribe’ (personal communication, Shimar of Kuwait). The haplogroup R1a1-M17 is found at substantial frequency in Iraq, so limited gene flow or subsequent drift (or both) could account for its presence in the Shimar—although later migrations, slavery and trade provide alternative explanation


    It seems that the Shammar R1a1 matches with that of the Ashkenazi Jews rather than with Iranic speakers. However J1 being dominant shows the tribes origins in Arabia and where it claims it descent from Yemen. Interestingly that Shammaris are autosomally the same as Yemenite Jews despite the high levels of so called Indo-European DNA.
    If you are using Iranic in ancient Iran sense (ie now mostly modern Afghanistan), then you may be correct.

    But as far as current Iran - Persia is concerned, it has been shown by a recent paper that the Ashkenazi R1a1 derives from a type Z2122 found in and around Persia. I also recall some Z282 Shammar (this is found more in Europe).

    There is good amount of R1a1 in Arabia (as high as 17% has been reported, perhaps about 10%) , but not much in Yemen.
    You may already know this - that many (esp. Tamim, Quraish, Wahab/Rass among others) from Najd, Mecca, Medina are R1a1-L657 (both Y7 and Y6) including the family that is the hereditary holder of the Kaaba key (al Shibi of Banu Shaiba).

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    If you are using Iranic in ancient Iran sense (ie now mostly modern Afghanistan), then you may be correct.

    But as far as current Iran - Persia is concerned, it has been shown by a recent paper that the Ashkenazi R1a1 derives from a type Z2122 found in and around Persia. I also recall some Z282 Shammar (this is found more in Europe).

    There is good amount of R1a1 in Arabia (as high as 17% has been reported, perhaps about 10%) , but not much in Yemen.
    You may already know this - that many (esp. Tamim, Quraish, Wahab/Rass among others) from Najd, Mecca, Medina are R1a1-L657 (both Y7 and Y6) including the family that is the hereditary holder of the Kaaba key (al Shibi of Banu Shaiba).
    Hmm I never knew that R1a is quite found a lot in Arabia. How did it get there is quite interesting. The funny thing it's true that Yemen has barely any R, and that the Shammar claim to be a Yemenite Qahtani tribe. It's sister tribe the majority Shia Bani Lam which claims descent from the Tayy parent group, don't show much R1a1 like that of the Shammar, but high levels of the typical Arabian subclade of the Y-DNA J1. One has to wonder how did R1a1 enter Arabia and it's Bedouin populations none the less.

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    Well the source is most likely coastal Iran and South Asia IMO. Just need to figure out what time period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Well the source is most likely coastal Iran and South Asia IMO. Just need to figure out what time period.
    That's a possibility, but highly unlikely given to the fact that Arabian Bedouin tribes are often protective of their paternal lineages. If it's from Southern Persians/North Indians this probably would have taken place in pre-Islamic times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanson View Post
    That's a possibility, but highly unlikely given to the fact that Arabian Bedouin tribes are often protective of their paternal lineages. If it's from Southern Persians/North Indians this probably would have taken place in pre-Islamic times.
    For R-L657 lines, that is close - about 2000 years separation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    For R-L657 lines, that is close - about 2000 years separation.
    Interesting. There has been some contact between Persians and Bedouins for nearly most of the time these people began to neighbour each other. It's said that the Shammar had contact with Persians and Persian culture during pre-Islamic period, where Persian culture was adopted and somewhat modified to fit the Bedouin lifestyle, how accurate this is, we don't know but it certainly can explain the Y-lineages.

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    This is how the Middle East looked like before the flood that cause the Persian Gulf. Btw, there was also no Caspian Sea.



    http://davidscottlevi.blogspot.nl/20...lture-and.html




    http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2011/f...2001/16-02.htm
    Last edited by the SUN child; 01-21-2014 at 01:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanson View Post
    That's a possibility, but highly unlikely given to the fact that Arabian Bedouin tribes are often protective of their paternal lineages. If it's from Southern Persians/North Indians this probably would have taken place in pre-Islamic times.
    Well R1a of any type is not native to Arabs. Especially not L657+. I don't really care if they think they pure on their paternal side. There are plenty of non Islamic South Asian populations who think the same thing but are carrying Semitic types of J1 and E from West Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Well R1a of any type is not native to Arabs. Especially not L657+. I don't really care if they think they pure on their paternal side. There are plenty of non Islamic South Asian populations who think the same thing but are carrying Semitic types of J1 and E from West Asia.
    How do you know this without any ancient Arab R1a dated samples [like Eulau Germany]from the region? Perhaps they also practiced endogamy and have oral/written traditions in their culture, after all we now know that there are R1a Jewish Levites and they practiced endogamy and have traditons of their origins from the Middle East.
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-21-2014 at 04:23 PM.

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