Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 29 of 29

Thread: I2a + mtDNA U + Vasconic = Mesolithic European?

  1. #21
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,300
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    In South America the situation was different, perhaps with a similar development of a dominant language more similar to Eurasia and the PIE language. Tupi Language Family in Lowland South America can resemble in some aspects the expansion of the IE Language family.
    Tupi is just one of many Native American languages in South America, as I understand it, though I am no expert. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua..._South_America

    The paper is interesting though. Thanks for the link. I can see what you mean I think. The Americas did have an independent Neolithic, which could have spread certain languages, just as happened on other continents. Europe is unusual in having another linguistic wave after that.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-31-2014 at 03:37 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Basque Country ...
    Then we have one of Vennemann's linguistic theory that defines Old European hydronyms as being Vasconic. ...deserve a closer look based on genetics alone?
    Iberians including Spaniards and Basques show relatedness to (native Tunisian) Berbers, suggesting that the gene flow of 7th century AD invaders was also low in Iberians.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21385325

    Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704

    Our HLA data show that both southern from Ghannouch and northern Tunisians are of a Berber substratum in spite of the successive incursions (particularly, the 7th-8th century A.D. Arab invasion) occurred in Tunisia. It is also the case of other North Africans and Iberians.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309

    did euscara come from sahara?
    uri (water)=urine?

  3. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    226
    Sex

    Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive.
    How do you know that?

  4. #24
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,300
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by gravetti View Post
    •Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive.
    How do you know that?
    That was Ken Nordvedt's view.
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-31-2014 at 10:36 PM.

  5. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,933
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA
    L21
    mtDNA
    H

    I do not believe in Vasconic but believe the expansion from the western refuge as far as the Baltic and beyond probably led to the fission and divergence from a language that came from the south-west. It also took maybe 6 millenia for western derived hunters to reach their maximum extent c. 9000BC so the divergence in western-derived groups must have been very great even during their expansion period. It is about c. 17000 years since the western hunters emerged out of their refugia. So, there is very little hope of any reconstructable family of languages even stretching into the shakiest most speculative models. The divergence would be vast today had this group left any descendants.

    I would say any languages where connections can still be detected have shared a significantly more recent common ancestor than the 17000 year old scenario I have just made. Any shaky suggestions of links between Basque and the languages of the Caucasus does not work in a western derived hunter gatherer model as the hunter gatherer cultures of the Caucasus or the areas immediately to the north and south that have been detected archaeologically were not at all related to the wave from western Europe. Even the possibility that there are still detectable links between Basque and the Caucasus or IE in itself, if it were ever to be widely accepted, would tend to indicate a more recent common ancestor perhaps at the Neolithic sort of level if not later.

    There have been suggestions made very tentatively that Basque has some very deep time link to IE. Similar distant shared ancestry with IE has been made of some Caucasus languages as well as Uralic and to a lesser degree Altaic and some even more speculative linkages have been suggested. When you put that all together it suggests to me that Basque is more likely of eastern origin.

    Looking at the archaeology of the old Basque area the pre-farming period can be ruled out as a possible explanation for the tentative links between Basque and IE or Caucasian for reasons I have already cited above i.e. the hunters of those areas had probably not shared common ancestry since before the LGM. The next possibility is Cardial early Neolithic. This links back along the Med. as far as the Adriatic and probably originates in the Levant. Again, if the suggested Basque links with IE, Caucasian etc were real then the distribution of Cardial does not well fit the geography of IE, Caucasian etc - certainly not within the steppe model.

    So, on the surface, if the suggested deep time connections between Basque, IE and Caucasian languages have any basis in reality, they would tend to suggest that Jean's model of a post-Neolithic arrival would be supported. If the connections are wrong and Basque is a true isolate then I suppose it would open up the possibility that it is a western hunter remnant or perhaps more probably some sort of Neolithic cardial remnant.

    The link of Basque with palaeo-Sardinian seems a little more popular than the other tentative ones and is geographically easy enough to believe. There are a couple of reasons for believing that a pre-farming link is not responsible for any such connection. Firstly there is, as Jean mentioned today, evidence that hunters had died out there or never settled permanently before the farmers arrived. Secondly, and I believe this is a clincher, Sardinian hunters were not part of the western Magdalenian derived groups and probably any links in the upper Palaeolithic, especially in the LGM , would have taken advantage of the lower sea levels to walk through Corsica and the very narrow sea crossing to Tuscany from the latter island. That is epigravettian hunter territory, not Magdallenian or western. The last cultural commonality between these Italian hunters and those in the Franco-Cantabrian regugium would appear to be back in the pre-LGM part of the Gravettian - an enormous time depth and too deep to explain the Basque-palaeo Sardinian links.

  6. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    226
    Sex

    Thanks Jean.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by gravetti View Post
    •Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive.
    How do you know that?
    yeah...that lineage come from Mars....heloooouuuu....

  8. #28
    Banned
    Posts
    123
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Berkeley, CA
    Ethnicity
    "Black" Irish
    Nationality
    Proud American
    mtDNA
    J1c

    FWIW, there is likely some merit to the OP's contentions. Long ago Cavalli Sforza made the (still valid) point of using all tools at our disposal (genetics, language, history), to solve the puzzle. Here is my tiny piece, FWIW.

    I can report as some of you doubtlessly know that the historical sources, all written by Romans, state that at one third of Sardinia was inhabited by people from the Iberian peninsula. Now, ancient sources are notoriously fanciful at times, but this does not appear to be one of those examples of inventing mythical origins.

    If Romans encountered people in Sardinia in 500 BC with an Iberian-like or Vasconic language and a tradition of Iberian origin, this is evidence for some of the OP's theories.

  9. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    867
    Sex
    Omitted
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    mtDNA
    U5a2a1

    Quote Originally Posted by Christina View Post
    If Romans encountered people in Sardinia in 500 BC with an Iberian-like or Vasconic language and a tradition of Iberian origin, this is evidence for some of the OP's theories.
    No, it would be evidence of a link between Sardinians and Basques before 500 BC, most likely in the Neolithic or copper age. It is not evidence of either these cultures being present in these locations in the Mesolithic. See Jean's response to the OP.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to GailT For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (04-25-2015)

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 121
    Last Post: 09-20-2016, 04:38 PM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-16-2015, 05:17 AM
  3. Chronology of European mtDNA
    By Fire Haired in forum Other
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 10-16-2013, 04:03 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-25-2013, 01:24 AM
  5. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-20-2012, 04:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •