Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 29

Thread: I2a + mtDNA U + Vasconic = Mesolithic European?

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,791
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R1b - Z220 A7066+
    mtDNA
    U4b1a2 - FGS

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    You cannot be saying that no I2a+ existed in the Neolithic. So perhaps you mean that I2a* (L460/PF3647/S238) was born in Europe before farming arrived there? We can indeed deduce that, given that we have I2a1b* (M423) as early as 6000 BC in Europe. If I understand Ken Nordvedt's tree correctly, he estimates that I2a* was born around the time of the Last Glacial Maximum. http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...r%20Hg%20I.pdf

    However - this is the tricky bit - its descendants did not necessarily arrive before the Neolithic where they are now found. A whole lot of haplogroup I men seem to have been involved in one migration or another from the Mesolithic onwards, right up to the movements we can actually trace in pedigrees today.
    Well, you can say YDNA I was not likely to be responsible for the introduction of farming to Europe since the basal lineages seem to be present in Europe before this time. To your point, obviously I2a, I2, I1..etc lineages would have been swallowed up for the ride from the period between 6000 BC and present day.

    The point with Sardinia is important. I-M26 and G2a3 are the oldest on the island, followed by R1b-V88 as a third correct? Can someone confirm this?

  2. #12
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,055
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    The point with Sardinia is important. I-M26 and G2a3 are the oldest on the island, followed by R1b-V88 as a third correct? Can someone confirm this?
    I take it that you are talking about Paolo Francalacci et al., Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny, Science 341, (2013), 565. They say:

    .. we can infer that when the I2a1a sub-haplogroup entered Sardinia, it had already differentiated into four founder lineages that then accumulated private Sardinian variability. Two other founder clades show similar divergence after entry into the island: one belonging to haplogroup R1b1c (xV35) (whose differentiation is identified contrasting the Sardinian data with the ISOGG and 1000 Genome data), and the other to haplogroup G2a2b-L166 (identified by divergence from a sequenced Corsican sample).
    Here's the graph of Y-DNA on the island:

    Sardinians.jpg

    The grey area on that graph is enlarged here to show I2 on the island:

    SardinianI2.JPG

    Just to clarify for other readers: the founders here represent a Neolithic influx into Sardinia. So we seem to be wandering from the question posed by the OP.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-27-2013 at 06:07 PM.

  3. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,791
    Ethnicity
    Pred.Anglo-Saxon + Briton
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA
    R1b - Z220 A7066+
    mtDNA
    U4b1a2 - FGS

    Canada England Wales Netherlands France Cornwall
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I take it that you are talking about Paolo Francalacci et al., Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny, Science 341, (2013), 565. They say:


    Just to clarify for other readers: the founders here represent a Neolithic influx into Sardinia. So we seem to be wandering from the question posed by the OP.
    Thanks for posting that information. I think it is relevant to the OP topic at least as it concerns YDNA, founding lineages, and pre-IE language. If there is any connection between YDNA and linguistics, we should be looking at Basque/Sardinian language(s) being spoken by G2a + I2 men during the neolithic, which may have overlaid an even older set of languages spoken by hunter gatherer YDNA I men.

    I know that there is not much support for Vasconic and it's probably an oversimplification anyhow.

  4. #14
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,055
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    .. we should be looking at Basque/Sardinian language(s) being spoken ... during the neolithic....
    That has been suggested by one linguist. Bengtson, J. D. 2011. The Basque Language: History and Origin, International Journal of Modern Anthropology, 4, 43-59.

    He surmised that the ancestor of Basque arrived in Aquitaine along with the Neolithic Cardial culture. Basque vocabulary includes words for domestic animals, domesticated plants, and implements used in food production, which he argued have cognates in North-West Caucasian languages, suggesting a common ancestor. Scorn has been poured upon this idea by several linguists.

    I have pointed out in AJ that Euskara appears to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), cart (gurdi), wheel (gurpil from *gurdi-bil, meaning cart-round), smith ([h]arotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zillar or urre-zuri - literally white gold).

    So I suspect that the language ancestral to Basque and Palaeo-Sardinian arrived from the Balkans c. 4000 BC (when archaeology indicates a population expansion, new settlements, etc), rather than in the early Neolithic. That would fit with what Francalacci et al deduced:

    .. clades of E, R, and G that show Sardinian specific variability of 25 to 30 SNPs are consistent with further expansion in the Late Neolithic (~5500 to 6000 years ago)
    That is E1b1b1b2, R1b1a2 and G2a3.
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-27-2013 at 07:27 PM.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I have pointed out in AJ that Euskara appears to be a language from the age of metal. It includes indigenous Basque words relating to agriculture, wheeled vehicles and metallurgy, such as shepherd (artzain), millet (artatxiki - formerly arto), wine (ardo), cart (gurdi), wheel (gurpil from *gurdi-bil, meaning cart-round), smith ([h]arotz), iron (burdina), lead (berun), gold (urre), and silver (zillar or urre-zuri - literally white gold).
    Basque "zillar" is too much similar to "silver" and "burdina" to Hebrew "בַּרְזֶל" (see Latin "ferrum" from "*fersom/*bherdom" probably of Middle Eastern origin) for not being linked, etc.
    Last edited by Rathna; 12-28-2013 at 03:21 AM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Basque "zillar" is too much similar to "silver" and "burdina" to Hebrew "בַּרְזֶל" (see Latin "ferrum" from "*fersom/*bherdom" probably of Middle Eastern origin) for not being linked, etc.
    The first word, "silver", reconstructed like *silVbVr (see Mallory/Adams 2006, p. 79) could be a loanword of Ibero-Celt (silaPur) from Basque and diffused with Bell Beakers to Central Europe. We find it in fact in German and Balto-Slavic languages: ON silfr, OE seolfor, Goth silubr, Lith sidabras, Rus serebrò. The IE word for "silver", like Lat argentum, remained in those Indo-Europeans who, as I think, peopled Iberia from Italy but weren't reached from their expansion to Central Europe.
    The word for "iron" is believed of Middle Eastern origin, and we know that "iron" was worked by Hittites/Caucasians and diffused after the fall of the Hittite Empire (about 1200 BC). The reconstructed form of Latin "ferrum" from *fersom and which presupposes *bherdom could explain Basque burdina.
    About the last origin of the word perhaps it could be linked in some way with the IE word for "metal" (*h1roudhòs) seen that Hittites were Indo-Europeans.
    Last edited by Rathna; 12-28-2013 at 08:54 AM.

  7. #17
    Moderator
    Posts
    2,707
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA
    R1b-U152+ L2+
    mtDNA
    H4a1

    United States of America Italy Spain
    You could be right on many or all counts as my post was only opening up the discussion. I will add however the following points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M
    I can't agree. There are several objections:
    [*]Hunter-gathers spread over an area the size of Europe would not all be speaking the same language. See The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=980
    If R1a and R1b spoke Indo-European languages, I don't know why it would be difficult to have all haplogroup I Europeans speaking a single language family (notice I didn't say language). Besides, I2 began with one man speaking one language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M
    [*]Vennemann's theory on Old European hydronyms cannot be supported linguistically. Larry Trask, as expert on Basque, pointed out that 'None of the roots or suffixes listed by Vennemann for Old European looks anything like Basque, save for the root *iz- ‘‘water’’.
    I'm sure reconstructing an 8,000 year old language is an almost impossible feat, given the language influences and replacements that have occurred in Europe. Perhaps the root *iz- alone is good enough. Humans have been heavily bound to coastal areas throughout most of our existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M
    Sardinia was settled in the Neolithic by people making Cardial pottery. These people were not local hunter-gatherers. Far from it. The island had been empty for a thousand years before they arrived. The Cardial makers came by sea from the east and also moved up the Garonne to what is now Gascony. So the I2a link could relate to Cardial-makers. Said Cardial people undoubtedly had an ultimate origin in the Near East. They carried Near Eastern stock and seed, not to mention bringing pottery techniques of Near Eastern origin. I2 seems to be a European Mesolithic haplogroup that was caught up in the Cardial strand of the Neolithic (or part of it).
    While I2a has been found as a small percentage of Cardial Culture samples, that is not to say that they were not descendants of Iberian hunter-gatherers that got swept up in the Cardial Culture advance. Let's not forget that the only Megalithic Y-DNA we have to date is I2a-M26 and it is not really where one would expect it (Paris). I don't think it would surprise anyone if farming techniques were learned by I2a+U Mesolithics who then went on to build the Megalithic monuments of Western Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M
    That would explain why modern-day Sardinians appear strong in the autosomal element EEF (see Lazaridis 2013 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-for-Europeans )
    Sorry, but there is no way we can pretend to know the autosomal makeup of Mesolithic Sardinians based on modern day Sardinians. In all likelihood they would have resembled the La Brana hunter-gatherers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M
    Sardinia had a significant increase in population with the arrival of copper-working c. 4000 BC, probably from the Balkans.
    Agreed, but at the same time we see a big population spike in mainland Italy and we can't attribute it to I2a there. As a side note, if R1b was not responsible for the Stelae, then a Copper Age Balkan group may have been.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

  8. #18
    I heard that Basque and Fulani people had started to drink milk in marmara. Who knows why they became angry at each other, but they were split from each other’s and from the group; evil tongues says that they had fight over cows and milk production.
    did euscara is connected with sahara?
    Last edited by rokousa; 07-31-2014 at 10:05 AM.

  9. #19
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    7,055
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Nationality
    British
    mtDNA
    H

    United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    If R1a and R1b spoke Indo-European languages, I don't know why it would be difficult to have all haplogroup I Europeans speaking a single language family (notice I didn't say language).....

    there is no way we can pretend to know the autosomal makeup of Mesolithic Sardinians based on modern day Sardinians. In all likelihood they would have resembled the La Brana hunter-gatherers.
    Rich - sorry to only reply now. I only noticed your reply when this thread was bumped up.


    • As Johanna Nichols has proved with native North American languages, what you get with hunter-gatherers scattered across a continent is a whole lot of different languages and language families. People who don't meet up to chat in a thousand years are not going to speak the same language. It seems very likely that by the time people emerged from their LGM shelters and moved northwards, each refuge would have developed a totally different language (or language family) from any other refuge. So what you would get is encounters in let's say Jutland or Finland between reindeer hunters from Iberia speaking one language and ditto from the Black Sea region speaking a completely different one. And so on. Those in the Italian refuge seem to have made less impact, but they too would have a different language.
    • Sardinia was not settled in the Mesolithic. Hunter-gatherers needed more animals/territory than the Mediterranean islands could supply. So they might make visits, but did not stay. There is no sign of them in Sardinia for a thousand years before the first farmers arrived.
    • La Brana 1 had Y-DNA C1a2. Not a lot of them around now.
    • Y-DNA I2 was found in some Mesolithic foragers in Scandinavia, but that was a lineage of I2 that did not survive. The I2 that did survive comes from a group of foragers who took up farming. It travelled with Cardial Ware to Sardinia (see the Francalacci et al Sardinian DNA paper with time estimates*). Cardial Ware also went up the Garonne to S France north of the Pyrennees, which I assume is why it appears in the Basques.


    *
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post24966
    Last edited by Jean M; 07-31-2014 at 09:40 PM.

  10. #20
    Moderator
    Posts
    519
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA
    H1ao1

    Brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    As Johanna Nichols has proved with native North American languages, what you get with hunter-gatherers scattered across a continent is a whole lot of different languages and language families. People who don't meet up to chat in a thousand years are not going to speak the same language. It seems very likely that by the time people emerged from their LGM shelters and moved northwards, each refuge would have developed a totally different language (or language family) from any other refuge. So what you would get is encounters in let's say Jutland or Finland between reindeer hunters from Iberia speaking one language and ditto from the Black Sea region speaking a completely different one. And so on. Those in the Italian refuge seem to have made less impact, but they too would have a different language.
    In South America the situation was different, perhaps with a similar development of a dominant language more similar to Eurasia and the PIE language. Tupi Language Family in Lowland South America can resemble in some aspects the expansion of the IE Language family. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0035025

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 121
    Last Post: 09-20-2016, 03:38 PM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-16-2015, 04:17 AM
  3. Chronology of European mtDNA
    By Fire Haired in forum Other
    Replies: 94
    Last Post: 10-16-2013, 03:03 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-25-2013, 12:24 AM
  5. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-20-2012, 03:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •