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Thread: First Mesolithic ancient Y-DNA is I*, I2 and I2a1b*

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    It doesn't need to be. It could have been bottled up in Scandinavia for thousands of years before finally migrating during the Germanic expansions. Also, it would be difficult to associate it with Corded Ware as ancient DNA samples have been lacking I1 to date. Besides, it is a almost a necessity to have Corded Ware as heavily R1a at this point to explain the spread of R1a.

    Hasn't Ken N. been recently arguing I1 expanded from the South Baltic? I also believe recent findings have been pointing to a greater diversity of I1 in continental Europe particularly Germany with some old clades distributed around the Baltic. I have my doubts on Corded Ware being so homogenous. I think there have only been 3 samples from Corded Ware tested so far. One from Elau in East Germany that was an upstream R1a, and two from Southern Poland which were likely G and G/I/J. So I think it is a bit early to say Corded Ware had no I1 due to the small sample size and a complete lack of samples from the Southern Baltic and North Sea coasts. Also who knows what Western Corded Ware carried. It is worth noting that the branches of R1a best associated with that region are CTS4385/L664 which Michal thinks doesn't even reach a frequency of 1% anywhere. That seems like a very low rate of survival for Corded Ware lineages. So I1 might still be a a candidate to be a part of that mix. But then again we shouldn't expect Corded Ware lineages to have survived everywhere (especially since I2 in Scandanavia didn't do a good job of surviving) and I1's presence in Corded Ware probably should have spread some I1 deep into Asia via the Corded Ware>Fatyanovo-Balanovo>Abashevo chain of cultures (unless of course this chain was cultural or a bottleneck reduced the frequency of I1 to zero).

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    It doesn't need to be. It could have been bottled up in Scandinavia for thousands of years before finally migrating during the Germanic expansions. Also, it would be difficult to associate it with Corded Ware as ancient DNA samples have been lacking I1 to date. Besides, it is a almost a necessity to have Corded Ware as heavily R1a at this point to explain the spread of R1a.
    Modern phylogeography is inconsistent with a dispersal from Scandinavia.

    As for Motala2, only M253 of the numerous phyloequivalent I1 SNPs was tested. None of the I2, I2a, I2b, or I2c defining SNPs was tested. So to say it's I* is not justified. The same for Motala9, which had just two SNPs tested - one that is phyloequivalent to M253 (negative) and another that is among those defining I (positive). My suspicion is that these two samples would also be I2, but we certainly can't rule out pre-I1 or some line that is more similar to I1 than I2. The big point is that I1 was not found in mesolithic samples in its modern stomping ground and that I2-M423, which is rare in Scandinavia, was.
    Last edited by pyromatic; 12-27-2013 at 06:43 AM.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara View Post
    Jean M. I love your website Ancestral Journeys. It has so much ancient DNA you can compare with modern DNA at places like Eupedia and FTDNA. Were Motola 2 and Motola 9 for sure I* or just negative for all the I subclades they were tested for? It would make sense if all the Y DNA from Motola, Sweden was tested for I2a1b that they would all be positive, and that I2a1b*(X I2a1b1, I2a1b2, I2a1b3) was popular in many areas of Europe in the Mesolithic. This new Y DNA probably means I2a1b3 L621 has a Mesolithic origin in or around eastern Europe, maybe it spread after the Mesolithic but still. I know that I2a1b2 L61.1 is mainly in north-west Europe even though the Luxemburg man was negative for it I bet it also has a Mesolithic origin somewhere around where it is today. Y DNA I2a2 and I1 were probably somewhere in central Europe during the Mesolithic and I2a1a CTS595 was somewhere in western Europe. Unlike I2a1a MTS595 which is very exclusive to western Europe I2a1b is in eastern and western Europe, so it kind of makes sense these Mesolithic northwest Europeans had I2a1b.

    I can't wait till that paper on La Brana-1's genome comes out, if they get his Y DNA it will probably be I2a1a1 M26 unless his paternal line goes back to a farmer. If there is more Y DNA taken from Mesolithic central Europe I2a2 P214 and I1 M253 will probably pop up. I am not very surprised non of the Y DNA samples from Mesolithic Sweden had hg I1. Because all modern Scandinavians including Sami(mtDNA V) have about as much farmer mtDNA as the rest of Europe, it makes sense who ever brought Y DNA I1 to Scandinavia were farmers. I think there was probably major population replacement that occurred in Scandinavia during the metal ages. There is evidence of this in the hunter gatherer mtDNA from Karelia, Gotland, and now Motola, Sweden.

    In most regions of Europe there has probably been major population replacement since the Mesolithic. The only Europeans that may have mainly Mesolithic ancestry are central, northern-western, eastern, and especially northeastern.
    There's no reason to suspect I1 existed in the mesolithic. The results of this paper, both the positive and negative SNPs, are consistent with datings for these nodes. So it's reasonable to then expect the datings for I1 and its subclades are also relatively accurate, which also put I1's MRCA in the neolithic. Should this be the case, researchers need to begin testing more of the phyloequivalent SNPs if we're to find where (pre-)I1 got its start.

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  7. #24
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    I don't think you can extrapolate a recent expansion from a single line as evidence of late adoption of farming and maintenance at replacement level. It could be consistent with that but need not imply such a conclusion. You might make the same claim in regard to R1b then (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/11...t-western.html). I would like to see the same analysis performed with regard to I1.

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that the I*'s were not tested for I2.
    You will see in my original post:

    Motola 2: I* (P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37-).
    Motola 9: I* (P38+, P40-)

    M253 = I1
    P40 = I1
    L37 = I2a2

    Possibly they got no call for I2, I2a and I2a1 mutations on these two samples. They certainly tested other samples for them.

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    I don't think you can extrapolate a recent expansion from a single line as evidence of late adoption of farming and maintenance at replacement level..
    Of course I can. I have done. I think what you mean is that I shouldn't! There are of course other possibilities. This would be a good place to suggest and debate them. Welcome to the forum.

    You might make the same claim in regard to R1b then ..
    I do indeed draw similar conclusions - not quite the same. But that is the topic of another thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ora-et-al-2013
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-27-2013 at 12:37 PM.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara View Post
    It gets annoying when people assume I1 was originally Scandinavian. If they do just a tiny bit of research on how its subclades are distributed they will find it is more diverse in central Europe than Scandinavia. It is not only Germanic too because I1a2 L22 is pre Germanic in Scandinavia, and I1 definitely is as a whole.
    I think sites like Eupedia promote the Scandinavian bit on the basis of frequency of modern populations, rather than diversity. Some quotes:

    "Haplogroup I is the oldest major haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from very minor haplogroups like C6 and deep subclades of other haplogroups)."

    "The I1 branch is estimated to have split away 20,000 years ago and evolved in isolation in Scandinavia during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic."

    "Haplogroup I1 is the most common I subclade in northern Europe. It is found mostly in Scandinavia and Finland, where it typically represent over 35% of the male Y-chromosomes. Associated with the Norse ethnicity, I1 is found in all places invaded by ancient Germanic tribes and the Vikings."

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The Loschbour individual was M423+ L178+ L161- L621- , which Ken Nordtvedt says has not been observed in modern Y-DNA. ("I don't believe we have a present day example in our databases which is M423+ L178+ but ancestral for both L621 and L161.").
    Just adding a link to where he said this: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-12/1387905885

    He added:
    I estimated the age of the node where eventual L621+ branch line parts from eventual L161+ branch line to be 12,000 years ago. See "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" at my web link below.
    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/ i.e.

    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...r%20Hg%20I.pdf
    Last edited by Jean M; 12-27-2013 at 12:46 PM.

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ara View Post
    It gets annoying when people assume I1 was originally Scandinavian. If they do just a tiny bit of research on how its subclades are distributed they will find it is more diverse in central Europe than Scandinavia. It is not only Germanic too because I1a2 L22 is pre Germanic in Scandinavia, and I1 definitely is as a whole.

    Thanks for clarifying that the I*'s were not tested for I2, I think all were probably I2a1b*(- all 3 subclades). mtDNA U2e, U4, and U5 now have been found in Mesolithic central Europe, Scandinavia(Sweden and an island by Gotland), and Karelia. This shows they had a somewhat close maternal relationship also now Y DNA I2a1b has been found in Mesolithic central Europe and Sweden. When looking at mtDNA from Mesolithic Europe I did see some differences between Russia-Scandinavian hunter gatherer mtDNA with the rest of Europe. All U5 subclades from Mesolithic Scandinavia and Russia are under U5a while most from the rest of Mesolithic Europe are under U5b. I see the same pattern in U5 subclades in the Neolithic and metal ages. The bronze and iron age kurgan people of Asia had a high amount of U5(all 13 with subclade were U5a), U2e, and U4 like Mesolithic hunter gatherers of Russia. Most of the U5 subclades from Neolithic central Europe were under U5b. But then in Bell beaker and Corded ware most is U5a, and U4 and U2e pop up for the first time since the Mesolithic. I think that is evidence people from far eastern Europe migrated to central Europe in the copper age.
    Some of the Motola results are bonafide I*. What is unusual about this? This is exactly what we would expect considering that M253 was always thought to be neolithic age or younger by the mathematicians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Some of the Motola results are bonafide I*. What is unusual about this? This is exactly what we would expect considering that M253 was always thought to be neolithic age or younger by the mathematicians.
    Which Motala are true I*?

    For Motala2, tested were the following:
    I-defining SNPs: P38, U179, L41
    I1-defining SNP: M253
    No I2
    No I2a
    No I2b
    No I2c
    Instead we have the following subclades:
    I1a2a1a (Z140), I2a1b3 (L621), I2a2 (L37), I2a2a1b2 (L703), and I2a2a1c1b1a1a (S434).

    You cannot possibly claim this is truly I* if only one of the 24 I1-defining SNPs is tested and NONE of the I2(a,b,c)-defining SNPs.

    For Motala9, only P38 (which is among the several SNPs-defining I) and P40 (also one of 24 I1-defining SNPs) were tested.

    This is also not a true I*. If you want to call them such, they must be negative for ALL I1 and I2 defining SNPs. Simply put, these two are just I for now and perhaps forever if no other testing is performed.

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