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Thread: DNA of the Chieftains of Ireland, Scottish Clan Chieftains and Kings of South Wales

  1. #651
    If M222 (which includes the Dal Cuinn (i.e. S660 sub-branch) and maybe Dal Fiatach and Luigne) has been removed from the list of DF49 testees. What about the DF49 members that are FGC6545 whose surnames point to them being Ui-Maine?

    Is the Morgan testee labelled as Welsh. His family is from north Co. Louth, were this surname in Irish is O'Muireagain and a local pedigree makes them Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla. His terminal SNP is shared with another Morgan from Armagh City, were the a local Armagh pedigree makes them O'Morgain, i.e., the same O'Muireagain family of Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla. Because of the Anglicization of Irish surnames into acceptable Imperial names, if is impossible to identify the correct origin of a British surname.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    Here is a breakdown of the current DF49 project pre M222, I only included people whose surnames I could resolve, I excluded singletons

    TOTAL INCLUDED = 117

    ENGLISH SURNAMES BOTH NORMAN AND SAXON = 37

    SCOTTISH SURNAMES BOTH SCOTTISH AND SCOTTISH NORMAN = 34

    IRISH SURNAMES BOTH IRISH AND NORMAN IRISH = 18

    WELSH SURNAMES = 10

    CONTINENTAL SURNAMES = 18


    Here is the breakdown

    English Surnames = 23
    English Norman surnames = 14

    Scottish Surnames = 23
    Scottish Norman Surnames = 11

    Irish Surnames = 14
    Iriish Norman surnames = 4

    Welsh Surnames = 10

    Continental Surnames = 18

    French = 6
    Iberian = 4
    Sweden = 2
    Poland = 2
    Germany = 1
    Austria = 1
    Italy = 1
    Holland = 1

    Here are the percentages

    Britain = 70%
    Ireland = 15%
    Non Isles = 15%

    British plus French accounts for 75% of all matches, this strongly suggests that this is Strathclyde Britain in origin given the bulk of William the Conquerors invasion force consisted of Celtic Britons from Brittany who were of the same Brythonic Celtic stock as the Scottish Strathclyde Britons and their Welsh counterparts, Irish matches are varied with the Madden Kelly cluster strongly matching to Welsh surnames of the Irish Norman Tribes of Galway origin such as Joyce, other Irish names are Carroll, Sullivan, Gallagher, Byrne, O'Dea, Daugherty, McCaffry, McCreary, Trainor and Madden

  2. #652
    The origin of M222 looks very much like it is in the Strathclyde Scottish region with names such as Caldwell and Dalton being the source of this SNP ???????? Because of the Irish names such as Caldwell and Dalton ????

  3. #653
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    I'm afraid a lot of origin myths & legends for Scottish & Irish surnames were taken as gospel. Some seem to have thrown science into that particular mix & tried to make the mythology 'work'. Not surprisingly, the jigsaw pieces don't always fit as they were supposed to!

  4. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by castle3 View Post
    I'm afraid a lot of origin myths & legends for Scottish & Irish surnames were taken as gospel. Some seem to have thrown science into that particular mix & tried to make the mythology 'work'. Not surprisingly, the jigsaw pieces don't always fit as they were supposed to!
    Can you justify what you are saying? For I find it is the Angliczation that is falsehood.

    Did you know within the M222 project we have identifies branches of Dal Cuinn, i.e., Ui Neill and Ui Briuin as being form DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > M222 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105(S660)
    The Ui Maine surnames are from DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > FGC6540 > FGC6562 > FGC6545
    The O'Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla are DF49/S474 > FGC11210 > FGC11163 > ZZ33 > 7935412-A-T > Y55

    While the Anglo Norman settle of Scotland seems very false:
    The Littles and MacKennedys of Carrick share SNP A8 hence predicted to have share a common ancestor 651 ybp ~ 1309 AD.
    Now the above families share with Glendinnings and Vans SNP A3, no date predicted.
    Again the above families share with the MacLean, Drummonds, Elliots, SNP L193 with a predicted age of 2116 ybp ~ 256 BC.
    Further out are the MacKenizes sharing SNP FGC13499 with a predicted age of 3429 ybp ~ 1469 BC.
    And the Maguires of Fermangh sharing SNP S5668 with a predicted age of 3680 ybp ~ 1720 BC.
    Hence families that claim to be Hungarian or Norman have the same yDNA origin as their neighboring Gaels.

    As for L1065 they seem to be Dal Raida (who according to Bede and other 7/8th century sources came from Ireland.)
    (L1065 splits into FGC10125 and S744)
    FGC10125 gives the Campbells who never claim any descent from Fergus Mor
    (S744 splits into those that claim descent from Fergus Mor)
    S691 The MacGregors, Bohannon, the Buchanans, a Matheson sept from Carbeth?, Robertson and Ferguson which I believe are the real family from Atholl (plus Alexanders and Patersons from Argyll? and Hendersons and Ewensons.)
    S764 The MacLaren, MacRae, a sept of Ferguson (of Balquidder?), a sept named MacDonald, the MacPhersons of Clan Chattan and a sept of MacSweeny, MacCoys (of Kintyre?) and a sept of Ferguson (of Kilkerran?), Templetowns and a sept of MacFarlanes.
    Y17075 The McKinnons plus related sept of MacPherson and possibly some MacQuarries, and the Youngs that trace themselves to a branch of the Lamonts of Cowal.
    CTS4931 a sept of Rodgers (of Bute?)
    Y15476 a sept of Moores

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  6. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    Can you justify what you are saying? For I find it is the Angliczation that is falsehood.

    Did you know within the M222 project we have identifies branches of Dal Cuinn, i.e., Ui Neill and Ui Briuin as being form DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > M222 > DF106 > DF104 > DF105(S660)
    The Ui Maine surnames are from DF49/S474 > Z2980 > Z2976 > DF23 > Z2961 > FGC6540 > FGC6562 > FGC6545
    The O'Muireagain of Ui Tuirtre of Clan Colla are DF49/S474 > FGC11210 > FGC11163 > ZZ33 > 7935412-A-T > Y55

    While the Anglo Norman settle of Scotland seems very false:
    The Littles and MacKennedys of Carrick share SNP A8 hence predicted to have share a common ancestor 651 ybp ~ 1309 AD.
    Now the above families share with Glendinnings and Vans SNP A3, no date predicted.
    Again the above families share with the MacLean, Drummonds, Elliots, SNP L193 with a predicted age of 2116 ybp ~ 256 BC.
    Further out are the MacKenizes sharing SNP FGC13499 with a predicted age of 3429 ybp ~ 1469 BC.
    And the Maguires of Fermangh sharing SNP S5668 with a predicted age of 3680 ybp ~ 1720 BC.
    Hence families that claim to be Hungarian or Norman have the same yDNA origin as their neighboring Gaels.

    As for L1065 they seem to be Dal Raida (who according to Bede and other 7/8th century sources came from Ireland.)
    (L1065 splits into FGC10125 and S744)
    FGC10125 gives the Campbells who never claim any descent from Fergus Mor
    (S744 splits into those that claim descent from Fergus Mor)
    S691 The MacGregors, Bohannon, the Buchanans, a Matheson sept from Carbeth?, Robertson and Ferguson which I believe are the real family from Atholl (plus Alexanders and Patersons from Argyll? and Hendersons and Ewensons.)
    S764 The MacLaren, MacRae, a sept of Ferguson (of Balquidder?), a sept named MacDonald, the MacPhersons of Clan Chattan and a sept of MacSweeny, MacCoys (of Kintyre?) and a sept of Ferguson (of Kilkerran?), Templetowns and a sept of MacFarlanes.
    Y17075 The McKinnons plus related sept of MacPherson and possibly some MacQuarries, and the Youngs that trace themselves to a branch of the Lamonts of Cowal.
    CTS4931 a sept of Rodgers (of Bute?)
    Y15476 a sept of Moores
    I wasn't suggesting every clan/surname's history was based on mythology, merely that some were. David Sellar's 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making & Pedigree Faking' highlighted some of the problems, as did Skene. Sellar decried those who claimed a Norman ancestor when an indigenous root was more likely. Luckily more researchers are adopting a more rigorous approach to genealogy & using, as you appear to be, DNA evidence.
    I've discussed the fact in other posts that several modern historians believe influence went from Argyll etc to Ulster & not vice-versa, however that's another debate! aDNA from several Scottish sites should be available by September, and the data should be fascinating.
    Last edited by castle3; 06-06-2017 at 04:07 PM.

  7. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by castle3 View Post
    I wasn't suggesting every clan/surname's history was based on mythology, merely that some were. David Sellar's 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making & Pedigree Faking' highlighted some of the problems, as did Skene. Sellar decried those who claimed a Norman ancestor when an indigenous root was more likely. Luckily more researchers are adopting a more rigorous approach to genealogy & using, as you appear to be, DNA evidence.
    I've discussed the fact in other posts that several modern historians believe influence went from Argyll etc to Ulster & not vice-versa, however that's another debate!
    I would agree there are problems with our understanding of the pedigrees in MS1467 and claims that certain Cowal families being O'Neill (and with who the Ulster O'Neills are).

    The major problem I have is accessing the original Scottish Gaelic material. There was and are numerous pedigree material (http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/91596/1/91596.pdf), however other than Sellar I find little analysis or transcriptions of the material.

    After reviewing the L1065 families, I am left wondering about what is within the Scottish Gaelic tradition, i.e., within the original material, and how it describes the connections between the L1065 families. yDNA testing can show then the material is correct. The pedigrees in the Black book of Clanranald included a comment that the MacKenizes and MacLeans might be related. This seems true, however not at the generation mentioned within this text.

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  9. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    I would agree there are problems with our understanding of the pedigrees in MS1467 and claims that certain Cowal families being O'Neill (and with who the Ulster O'Neills are).

    The major problem I have is accessing the original Scottish Gaelic material. There was and are numerous pedigree material (http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/91596/1/91596.pdf), however other than Sellar I find little analysis or transcriptions of the material.

    After reviewing the L1065 families, I am left wondering about what is within the Scottish Gaelic tradition, i.e., within the original material, and how it describes the connections between the L1065 families. yDNA testing can show then the material is correct. The pedigrees in the Black book of Clanranald included a comment that the MacKenizes and MacLeans might be related. This seems true, however not at the generation mentioned within this text.
    Thanks for the link. It's a paper I've read with interest in the past. I'll PM you shortly.
    Last edited by castle3; 06-06-2017 at 07:12 PM.

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  11. #658
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    Here is a breakdown of the current DF21 project S5488 SNP, I only included people whose surnames I could resolve, I excluded singletons and I only included one example of a surname for instance if there were 10 Kelly’s I only included one

    TOTAL INCLUDED = 156

    ENGLISH SURNAMES NORMAN SAXON AND CORNISH = 23

    SCOTTISH SURNAMES BOTH SCOTTISH AND SCOTTISH NORMAN = 44

    IRISH SURNAMES BOTH IRISH AND NORMAN IRISH = 83

    WELSH SURNAMES = 4

    CONTINENTAL SURNAMES = 2


    Here is the breakdown

    English Surnames = 17
    English Norman surnames = 6

    Scottish Surnames = 34
    Scottish Norman Surnames = 10

    Irish Surnames = 76
    Iriish Norman surnames = 7

    Welsh Surnames = 4

    Continental Surnames = 2

    Sweden = 1
    Finland = 1

    Here are the percentages

    Irish = 53%
    Scottish = 28%
    English = 15%
    Welsh = 3%
    Non Isles = 1%

    Irish plus Scottish accounts for 81% of all matches, this strongly supports the Rathlin 2 ancient DNA result that S5488 was present in Ireland 4000 years ago, there is no indication of a continental origin for this SNP and the Scottish matches strongly indicate a large Dalriada element especially given that the older clusters are Irish and many of the Scottish surnames are given as ancient Irish in origin.
    Last edited by oneillabu; 06-17-2017 at 08:50 AM.

  12. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    Remarkably of the Nine surname branches of CLANN CERNAIGH Seven of these are represented by the S5488 Ui Maine signature

    If we do some Genetic distance comparisons between the above the following have tested to 111 markers

    443955 Michael O'Loughlin
    210550 John F. Cullen
    N126262 Patrick Conlin
    44513 King (Conroy)

    The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

    The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Conlin at 111 markers is 17 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

    The genetic distance from Conlon to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

    This shows a remarkable consistency which is the pattern amongst the various S5488 branches which indicates that these are genuine pedigree matches however because any of the rest of the matches above have not tested to 111 markers then this is a provisional 8th Century date for CLANN CERNAIGH

    If we look at 44513 King (Conroy) compared to the other 111 marker matches we find the following

    The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Cullen at 111 markers is 15 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1200 years ago

    The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Conlen at 111 markers is 16 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1300 years ago

    Again we find the same type of consistency which all points to a Common Big Ancestor consistent with the Ui Maine pedigree
    Hi All,

    My Collins ancestors came from right outside of Athlone on the Connacht side. They had been farming there since at least the mid 1700's. I'm trying to determine what "kind" of Collins's they were. Did they come up Shannon from Limerick or Cork or were they "indigenous" Collins's of Clan Cernaich of Ui Maine.

    I want to order a Y-DNA test to figure this out, but I can't afford the Big-Y test. But if it sounds like I'd need to get the Y-111 test and an additional SNP test to see if my terminal Haplogroup is S5488. Is there a cheaper, more targeted test I could take?

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