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Thread: DNA of the Chieftains of Ireland, Scottish Clan Chieftains and Kings of South Wales

  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    The MacKinnon FTDNA maybe a small project. However there is a clear grouping of haplotypes around members that have tested PF5236+ (i.e. L1065+) and I understand the group includes the MacKinnon chief.
    The current Clan MacKinnon Chief is Madam Anne Gunhild MacKinnon of MacKinnon.

    http://www.themackinnon.com/leadership.html

  2. #632
    I found out about Steer and Bannerman opinion in Sellar's essay "Highland Family Origins", in 'The Middle Ages in the Highlands', Inverness Field Club, 1981, p. 105-6.

    Sellar is drawing on "Late Mediaeval Monumental Sculpture in the West Highlands", Streer & Bannerman, Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland, 1977, p. 105.

    I believe the crux of Bannerman argument (based Sellar retelling) is the 1970s discovery of an inscription on the tomb marker of Gille-Brigde MacKinnon, which Sellar informs us was "+ HIC ICAET. FINGONE. MAC CARMAIC. ET FIN/LAID MAC. FINGONE. ET EOGAN." The multiple generations named conform with that of the MacKinnon pedigree in MS1467, given here:

    Niall m. Gille Brighde m. Eogan m. Gille Brighde m. Old Eoghan m. Finlay m. Finnghuine from whom are the MacKinnons m. Cormac m. Airbheartach m. Murchadh m. Feachar Og m. MacBeth.

    Those in bold are deemed by Bannerman to confirmed by this grave marker.

    Also mentioned by Sellar is Cormac m. Airbheartach who MacFirbis tells us (under the MacMillan pedigree): "Cormaic mic Airbeartaigh reamraieth a se an tairbertach sin do aitreabh da threibh deg i. Fionnlochlannach i. Greagraidh na ngaisgeathach das comainim Muile agus Tir no Tire aodha agus Cribhinis, no Craobhinis"

    Hence Cormaic mic Airbeartaigh is an Aire Tuise (a Lord of Precedence) in lands ruler over by Norway, i.e. lord of homesteads within the lands of the Greagraidh na ngaisgeathach (Isle of Mull), the land of descendants of Aodh (Isle of Tiree) and Tree Island (Isle of Iona). And so thought to be a real person.

    If L1065 does not represent Dal Riada, what else does? The MacKenizes, MacLean, MacKennedy, Clan Little and Clan Elliot are L513, however they share their branch of L513 with the Maguires of Fermangh, a Airgialla people. (I note an Airgiallan people were noted as allies of Cenel Loairn.) While the Cameroons are MC14 and so related to families of Southern Ireland. I don't think their is any option other than the Dal Riada being L1065?
    Last edited by Muireagain; 03-13-2017 at 08:35 PM.

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  4. #633
    A more provocative question: looking at the small MacDougall DNA project, the one MacDougall from Lorne looks as if he is DF27+.

    The MacDonald DNA project has identified the MacIans of Glencoe as being DF27+. If memory services me correctly the R1a MacDonald are so far only from Clan Donald North. While the MacIans of Glencoe are representative of Clan Donald South. Could Somerled have been DF27 (it seems possible that the O'Neills of Ulster and Douglases of Galloway are also DF27+) ?

    (Mackinnon chief in question is Lachlan Og (died circa 1600), his descendant (from a cadet branch) reports that he matches the DNA of the present chief of Clan MacGregor, who I understand in L1065+.)

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  6. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    looking at the small MacDougall DNA project, the one MacDougall from Lorne looks as if he is DF27+.

    The MacDonald DNA project has identified the MacIans of Glencoe as being DF27+.
    Any idea what downstream subclade of DF27 the MacDougall from Lorne and the MacIans of Glencoe are? I hope they might join the FTDNA DF27 and Subclades project:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/about

  7. #635
    The Clan Donald, USA, Website associates Glencoe MacDonalds (MacIan) with R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > BY907 > FGC14113

    see: https://clandonaldusa.org/index.php/...ct/85-dna-bigy

    "An interesting variation on the half brother issue arises from discovery that one of our Glencoe MacDonald reference point sources who can directly trace his line to a MacDonald born in Glencoe and who died in Glencoe in 1730, a descendent of the youngest son of the Glencoe chief in 1745, and a third Glencoe descendant all turned out to be R1b in their pure paternal descent rather than R1a like Somerled. We historically know that Iain Fraoch, the root of the Glencoe MacDonald line was the result of an irregular union between Angus Og and the daughter of the local McEnruig chief at about the time that Angus Og had been granted control over Glencoe by Robert the Bruce. It clearly was a politically convenient union which was undoubtedly strongly supported by her father as well as Angus Og; Angus Og recognized his son, granted him the lands historically held by his maternal grandfather, and that son of irregular union was ultimately buried in Iona. The point on which we fail to focus is the probable subsequent children of the chief’s daughter by existing Glencoe men. She undoubtedly would have been considered quite a “catch” since she had borne the son of the overlord of the district and came from the line of the local chief. This could have easily resulted in a series of Celtic half brothers who were raised with Iain Fraoch and ultimately became the surviving line."
    https://clandonaldusa.org/index.php/dna-other-ancestry

    The MacDougall from Lorne has not taken an SNP test.

    (I find the Mac Dhughail of Morar claim descent from Clanranald, was the original R1a MacDougall (used to justify the Somerled claim) a member of Clanranald?)
    Last edited by Muireagain; 03-15-2017 at 11:21 PM.

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  9. #636
    I used the SNP predictor at http://www.nevgen.org/ to identify the haplogroup of MacDougall from Lorne. The predictor came up with R1b L21>DF13> BY2868, an SNP shared with a MacDowell. Hence it seems the MacDougall from Lorne is not going to be DF27, instead BY2868. Which doesn't seem to be share by current MacDonald testees. (I did notice that Z16891 was split between Irish MacDonells/MacDonalds and Dowells from Colonial USA.)

    The interesting thing about the MacDowell DNA Project is that it is dominated by M222 testees, including those identifying themselves with Galloway. Two of the M222 testees have tested their SNPs and are from a branch of Sil Lugdach mac Setna of Cenel Conaill. Hence suggesting that Fergus of Galloway was also of Sil Lugdach mac Setna of Cenel Conaill and that Galloway was ruled over by Cenel Conaill from Donegal.

    They are not the only Scottish family with a possible Dal Cuinn origin:
    The Grierson of Lag seem to be a branch of the O Maoileagain, who are found in mid-Antrim.
    The chief of Clan Robertson (I believe) is M222+ and those that have tested their SNPs are from a branch of Clann Conchobhair of Cenel Eogain.
    While the neighboring Clan Ferguson have also said to have tested as M222+ and are also from Clann Conchobhair of Cenel Eogain.

  10. #637
    Struggling with the fact that the MacKinnons are PF5236 and not S764 or S691 which are the dominant branches of S744. The assumption that MacFinnon's Cormac is a match for Cormac m. Airbheartach is based on the idea of overlapping geographic areas.

    I found the MacQuarries also overlapped the area of their said ancestor Cormac m. Airbheartach areas. Taking the first three R1b MacQuarries whose DNA match, but not ancestor (one has an ancestor from from Mull) in the MacQuarries DNA project, the predictor at http://www.nevgen.org/ to identifies their haplogroup as S764.

    I wonder if descendants of Clann Cormac m. Airbheartach are the Gaelic families from Innse Gall region and not mainland families?

  11. #638
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    MS1467 is a doc that is thought by many to be highly suspect. See David Sellar's 'Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making & Pedigree Faking' . He is well worth reading as he casts doubt on many origin-legends & myths. He specifically mentions MS1467 as being unreliable.
    Last edited by castle3; 04-13-2017 at 06:32 AM.

  12. #639
    Which part of the MS1457 suspect? Is the dubious portion that half that concerns the descendants of Cormac m. Airbheartach and not the Siolach Ghoirridh half?

    My thought is there is also a problem with the inherited Anglo understanding of the segmented society of Gaelic Scotland. Victorian seems to have lumped those with shared surnames into one family of the ilk. The Ferguson DNA results clearly show the lie in this, with the implication that the Gaelic segmented society of Scotland was as complicated as that of Gaelic Ireland. Hence the dubiousness of MS1457 may simply be due to the pedigrees are being applied to the wrong families?

  13. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muireagain View Post
    Which part of the MS1457 suspect? Is the dubious portion that half that concerns the descendants of Cormac m. Airbheartach and not the Siolach Ghoirridh half?

    My thought is there is also a problem with the inherited Anglo understanding of the segmented society of Gaelic Scotland. Victorian seems to have lumped those with shared surnames into one family of the ilk. The Ferguson DNA results clearly show the lie in this, with the implication that the Gaelic segmented society of Scotland was as complicated as that of Gaelic Ireland. Hence the dubiousness of MS1457 may simply be due to the pedigrees are being applied to the wrong families?
    Sorry for the lack of clarity. I wasn't referring to any specific surnames, merely pointing out that there is a lot doubt as to the truth regarding many Scottish surname myths and origin-legends. Several modern authors doubt that the Ulster-Argyll 'invasion' ever took place. Indeed, many believe any influence was probably in the opposite direction. It's been discussed in other posts.
    As you rightly state, the Victorians weren't always terribly accurate. Sellar noted that 'Families of undoubted Celtic descent began to claim Norman ancestors'. He went on to say that 'In Gaelic society, a pedigree was a political statement, and not infrequently an exercise in political propaganda. Because antiquity was at a premium, forgery and manipulation, some of it very skilful, became commonplace'.
    Skene highlighted the MacKenzies claim of Norman descent, which relied on docs no-one has ever seen! He also highlighted the confusion of the word 'hiberno', which at one time was used to describe Highlanders as well as those of Irish stock.
    From memory, William Gillies wrote a paper 'The Invention of Tradition', which I think focused on several Argyll surnames. You rightly noted the Ferguson surname, who had an important presence in Argyll.
    Last edited by castle3; 04-13-2017 at 11:31 AM.

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