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Thread: DNA of the Chieftains of Ireland, Scottish Clan Chieftains and Kings of South Wales

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    At least I use data which makes me the only one on this site, opinions are not data
    What's with the insults??? Didn't i just congratulate you on your great success?? Do you have plans to publish in the near future? If so are you planning on an article or perhaps a book? I personally recommend a book, as this discovery will have a profound impact on various aspects of Scottish/Irish culture and history!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS once again!!!!!

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    At least I use data which makes me the only one on this site, opinions are not data

    You know what?? You are absolutely correct. Reading your posts is a breath of fresh air!!! Look forward to reading your next one
    Last edited by Peter MacDonald; 02-17-2017 at 12:12 AM. Reason: typo

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    I really do not have time to argue with you, there is no reason why my offer to sponsor tests for these people could not be passed on to them by the project but if that is your choice then fine, that does not change the fact that they are L720+ the same as all the members shown below in your project some who have tested because I contacted them by YSearch and some not, if I were running the project then I would make sure all these people are in a seperate L720 group because they are all clearly L720+ but its your project and I am not a McDonald so it does not concern me, maybe they will decide to upgrade themselves at some stage so then it becomes irrelevant however there can be no doubt as to their L720 status so I will use them in my database anyway.

    &PVWFC
    &CZAPG
    &KLMOQ
    &42RHY
    &D3HFH
    &MUKLM
    &PSWSW
    &AUKTK
    You do realize that you can email the last five persons on your list without any assistance from Clan Donald Admins right??

  4. #604
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    Here is a recent post that I made on the FTDNA L226 activity feed on an update on the King Brian Boru genetic line. This takes a pretty genetic data only point of view vs. using genetic data to support the existing literature on the royalty of Ireland and Scotland:

    The descendants of Brian Boru (who lived in the 900s) are based on our titled descendant whose ancestors are required to prove their all male line from Brian Boru (around 40 generations). We know that this line is Y5610 > DC1 > Y5913 > FGC13418. This is based on two assumptions: 1) our royal line is confirmed to be FGC13418; 2) the dominance of the surname being O'Brien and variants along this path of YSNP mutations. Below is a summary of percentage of testers who are O'Brien or O'Brien variant surnames:

    ZZ34_1__________2 of 15 - 13 %
    DC33____________1 of 3 - 33 %
    Y5610___________6 of 6 - 100 %
    DC1_____________9 of 11 - 82 %
    Y6913___________2 of 3 - 67 %
    FGC13418_______2 of 2 - 100 %

    Before Brian Boru, usually only royalty carried surnames - not even sure they did. But surnames started around 1,000 years ago for English surnames and maybe 100 to 300 years earlier for Scottish and Irish clan names. So tracking lines before Brian Boru will be problematic since surnames were not used in any quantity or consistency prior to or even just after the Brian Boru time frame. I would defer to surname origin experts on this subject since this is a relatively new issue for me (I am still stuck in the 1750s for my Casey line in South Carolina for my L226 line).

    However, since it is obvious that descendants of Brian Boru carry the O'Brien surname and all the recent variants, Y5610 looks like the time frame that the O'Brien surname was used by descendants of the royal line of O'Brien testers. It used to be DC1 but with discovery of Y5610, it moved up another YSNP branch. Also, DC33 and ZZ34_1 are not well tested to date. In this time frame, there is no YSTR signature for these branches below the L226 signature at 67 makers (only 481 (22>23), so only YSNP testing will reveal more detail. 481 (22>23) is not unique to ZZ34_1 and DC33, as it shows up all across the L226 haplotree. Again, only YSNP testing would reveal which YSTR branch of 481 (22>23) that you belong to.

    Since DC33 can only be tested by NGS testing, this would be hard to test. One thing that could be done to help out. 154629/Dunphy is the only predicted submission to be DC33 positive based on the signature of 164407/Goodhind. This person could test the two private YSNPs of 164407, DC290 and DC291 at YSEQ. If one of these private YSNPs tested positive, this would create a branch for both testers and would only leave the O'Brien/176989 as the last remaining DC33 tester known to be DC33 positive and negative for all sons of DC33. This would increase O'Brien percentage from 33 % to 100 %.

    Also, the Dunphy tester would make an ideal NGS tester since only three individuals belong to DC33 POS and all sons negative. But the SNP pack would not help the Dunphy tester since DC33 is not included in the L226 SNP Pack due to being in an unstable area. It would asking a lot of the Dunphy tester for this kind of testing, so you may have to sponsor his testing for YSEQ or NGS testing. Also, Full Genomes Y Elite 2.1 would be a much better NGS choice as there more possibility of discovering more YSNPs and there is so little YSTR diversity along this chain of YSNP branches.

    Update - Five Kennedy submissions are now predicted to be DC33 positive based on the signature of Goodhind. So it now appears that DC33 may be prior to the usage of the surname of O'Brien. But if Dunphy and Goodhind create a new branch, the Kennedy genetic cluster could be an early NPE line off the O'Brien line as well. Also, none of the Kennedy submissions have taken a NGS test to confirm their status of DC33 (only NGS tests can confirm this branch). The Kennedy cluster could move up to the ZZ34_1 branch with future testing. NGS testing of this Kennedy cluster would be very useful to determining which YSNP branch most likely represents the origins of the King Brian Boru line (at least when they started regularly using the O'Brien surname).

    Here is my haplotree chart of L226 (now 78 % coverage) that is the source for this information:

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf

    Last edited by RobertCasey; 02-17-2017 at 04:02 PM.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertCasey View Post
    Here is a recent post that I made on the FTDNA L226 activity feed on an update on the King Brian Boru genetic line. This takes a pretty genetic data only point of view vs. using genetic data to support the existing literature on the royalty of Ireland and Scotland:

    The descendants of Brian Boru (who lived in the 900s) are based on our titled descendant whose ancestors are required to prove their all male line from Brian Boru (around 40 generations). We know that this line is Y5610 > DC1 > Y5913 > FGC13418. This is based on two assumptions: 1) our royal line is confirmed to be FGC13418; 2) the dominance of the surname being O'Brien and variants along this path of YSNP mutations. Below is a summary of percentage of testers who are O'Brien or O'Brien variant surnames:

    ZZ34_1__________2 of 15 - 13 %
    DC33____________1 of 3 - 33 %
    Y5610___________6 of 6 - 100 %
    DC1_____________9 of 11 - 82 %
    Y6913___________2 of 3 - 67 %
    FGC13418_______2 of 2 - 100 %

    Before Brian Boru, usually only royalty carried surnames - not even sure they did. But surnames started around 1,000 years ago for English surnames and maybe 100 to 300 years earlier for Scottish and Irish clan names. So tracking lines before Brian Boru will be problematic since surnames were not used in any quantity or consistency prior to or even just after the Brian Boru time frame. I would defer to surname origin experts on this subject since this is a relatively new issue for me (I am still stuck in the 1750s for my Casey line in South Carolina for my L226 line).

    However, since it is obvious that descendants of Brian Boru carry the O'Brien surname and all the recent variants, Y5610 looks like the time frame that the O'Brien surname was used by descendants of the royal line of O'Brien testers. It used to be DC1 but with discovery of Y5610, it moved up another YSNP branch. Also, DC33 and ZZ34_1 are not well tested to date. In this time frame, there is no YSTR signature for these branches below the L226 signature at 67 makers (only 481 (22>23), so only YSNP testing will reveal more detail. 481 (22>23) is not unique to ZZ34_1 and DC33, as it shows up all across the L226 haplotree. Again, only YSNP testing would reveal which YSTR branch of 481 (22>23) that you belong to.

    Since DC33 can only be tested by NGS testing, this would be hard to test. One thing that could be done to help out. 154629/Dunphy is the only predicted submission to be DC33 positive based on the signature of 164407/Goodhind. This person could test the two private YSNPs of 164407, DC290 and DC291 at YSEQ. If one of these private YSNPs tested positive, this would create a branch for both testers and would only leave the O'Brien/176989 as the last remaining DC33 tester known to be DC33 positive and negative for all sons of DC33. This would increase O'Brien percentage from 33 % to 100 %.

    Also, the Dunphy tester would make an ideal NGS tester since only three individuals belong to DC33 POS and all sons negative. But the SNP pack would not help the Dunphy tester since DC33 is not included in the L226 SNP Pack due to being in an unstable area. It would asking a lot of the Dunphy tester for this kind of testing, so you may have to sponsor his testing for YSEQ or NGS testing. Also, Full Genomes Y Elite 2.1 would be a much better NGS choice as there more possibility of discovering more YSNPs and there is so little YSTR diversity along this chain of YSNP branches.

    Update - Five Kennedy submissions are now predicted to be DC33 positive based on the signature of Goodhind. So it now appears that DC33 may be prior to the usage of the surname of O'Brien. But if Dunphy and Goodhind create a new branch, the Kennedy genetic cluster could be an early NPE line off the O'Brien line as well. Also, none of the Kennedy submissions have taken a NGS test to confirm their status of DC33 (only NGS tests can confirm this branch). The Kennedy cluster could move up to the ZZ34_1 branch with future testing. NGS testing of this Kennedy cluster would be very useful to determining which YSNP branch most likely represents the origins of the King Brian Boru line (at least when they started regularly using the O'Brien surname).

    Here is my haplotree chart of L226 (now 78 % coverage) that is the source for this information:

    http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf

    Robert, thanks for that. For anyone interested here are the links to two very interesting lectures on the O'Briens at GGI 2016.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp-1bfxaXYs (includes a bit at the end from Conor O'Brien - Baron Inchiquin)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNNHRWIXQ0

  6. #606
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    Has anyone discussed the Scottish Clans who are positive for DF27>L165? Jean M is sticking to her guns that it is a Scandinavian marker, but I don't see how you can look at the growing FTDNA L165 project and start to doubt that is the case. The BY132 branch consists of numerous Scottish clans, while BY132>BY209 includes the MacDonalds of Caithness and the MacNiells of Barra. The BY132>BY3257 branch includes a French surname and numerous English and Scottish surnames.
    On a separate branch, BY456 includes again a French surname and numerous English and Scottish surnames including the MacLeods of Iverness and McNeill of Skye. The British L165 members far outnumber the few Scandinavian members and the TMRCA dates are not supporting Viking incursions. Any thoughts?

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter MacDonald View Post
    You do realize that you can email the last five persons on your list without any assistance from Clan Donald Admins right??
    If you read my post you would see that I already have, three replied and tested positive for L720 however I found them by doing a search on markers in YSearch not from the links in the McDonald website, this does not prevent your project from grouping people together who are clearly related or replying to numerous polite requests to contact the other four for testing.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    If you read my post you would see that I already have, three replied and tested positive for L720 however I found them by doing a search on markers in YSearch not from the links in the McDonald website, this does not prevent your project from grouping people together who are clearly related or replying to numerous polite requests to contact the other four for testing.
    What ever you say. Fortunately you will not require any further testers from the content of your previous posts. Congratulations once again!!!

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneillabu View Post
    This was posted by me on

    04-07-2015, 08:26 PM

    this list can now be expanded using the up to date data from tested DF21 people




    Here are the actual pedigrees of the Ui Maine taken from the Book of Lecan
    broken down into sections, note that the name Trainor is not included in any
    pedigree. I have included the kit number or YSearch ID of any DF21 matches
    to each branch. If you compare this with theDF23/Z2961 matches you will see
    that DF21 has a far stronger claim to be Ui Maine, especially since this is
    the main DF21 hotspot. The only DF23 names from these pedigrees are one
    Madden and a cluster of Kelly's who share a fairly recent common ancestor
    and yet the M222 Niall propaganda has labelled this as Ui Maine even though
    there is no supporting evidence.

    Here are the various Ui Maine Branches

    CLANN CERNAIGH

    O'Finain Finan, Fanning One match 173456 Feehan One Match 98203 (clan colla)
    Feeney

    O'Laidhin Lyons, Lynne One example B8179

    O'Lachtnain Loughnan Laughlin Four matches 103901, 158243, 311927, 149586
    443955

    Conbhuidhe Conway, Conroy, Conry two matches 218112, 199254, possible third
    Conlon 324600

    O'Ceinneididh Kennedy Four matches 169021, N30683, N21843, 81497

    O'Dorchaidhi Darcy, Dorsey One Match 23504

    Sidhachain Sheehan, One Match 205682

    Cuilein, Cullen and Collins, One Match 210550 Cullen

    THE CLANN AEDHAGAIN

    Mac Egans Three matches 67599, 3676, 51686

    THE CLANN FLAITHEAMHAIL MIC DLUTHAIGH.

    O'Domnallains, Donnelan, Donald, Daniels Six matches, 44725, 286983, 183628,
    177135, 278841, 184048

    O'Maeilalaidfi's, Lally, Mulally, One Match, 217777

    THE CINEL FATHAIDH

    O'Fathaidh Faherty, Fahy, Flaherty,

    PEDIGREE OF HY-CORMAIC OF MAENMAGH

    Niall, son of Cerbhall, numerous DF21 Carrolls

    SIL ANMCHADA

    O'Maddens, One Match N61052

    Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit
    number 116797

    Ua Cinaeith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

    Muinter Chobhthaigh, Coffey, One Match, 95987

    Ua Brenainn Brennan, One Mulvihill Match, 163988

    Muintir Chicharain, Keighry, Carey, One Carey Match 84279

    Muintir Rodaighi, Ruddy, Roddy, Reidy Two Matches, 204692, 63208

    Muinter Conghalaigh, Conely, Two Matches 263699, 111808

    Ua Dubhlaigh, Dooley, Six Matches, 24765, 115408, 214229, 3224, 168720, 1405

    Muinter Lorcain, Larkin, Six matches, L-0088, L-0078, L-0083, L-0004,
    L-0065, L-0087

    Ua Maenaigh, Mooney, Three matches LSC 146064, N92313, 76448,

    THE MUINNTER CHOBHTHAIGH,

    Muinter Madadhain. Madden, One Match N61052

    Muinter Chinaith, Kenny, One Match V8A7U

    Muinter Tresaigh, Tracey Seven matches, 289639, 335793, 164932, 129222,
    185725, 45013, 271750

    Ua Churrain Curran, No Curran match, one possible Curry mistranslation Kit
    number 116797

    Ua Aedha, Hughes, Hugh. McHugh Four matches, 7996 (Colla), 182014, MESPS,
    EBJTD

    Muinter Ruairc, O'Rourke, Six Matches, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218,
    67651, 133193

    Muinter Dubhlainn, now Dowling, Doolin, Five Matches, 202200, N127012,
    148622, N57631, 198281

    Muinter Arrachtain, Harrington, One Match, 119300 (Colla)

    Muinter Conrui, Conry, King, Five Matches, 157485, 271391, 44513, 218112,
    170847

    Domhnall Mor, son of Tadhg Taillte, O'Kelly, Very large DF21 cluster

    UI BRIUN AI

    O'Connor, Four Matches, 193578, 178768, 155422, MacDermott, Two Matches,
    171696, N71588

    UI BRIUN BREFFNEY

    O'Rourke, Six Matches, 67651, 133193, N105692, H1730, 144806, 126218,
    O'Reilly, Two matches 110716 (314.2), 91903

    UA DUBHCHONNA

    Downey Two DF5 Downing matches (161348) (187591)

    5 Doolin's DF5 202200, N127012, 148622, N57631, 198281

    Ua Mongain Mongan One example S5488 (N17039)

    O'Ruaidhre, Rogers one S5488 Rogers (115854)

    O'Cormaic Cormack or McCormack Two Clan Colla DF21 matches 253386 and 278906


    All of the following pedigrees are taken from

    THE TRIBES AND CUSTOMS HY-MANY, COMMONLY CALLED O'KELLY'S COUNTRY,
    TRANSLATED FROM THE BOOK OF LECAN, A MANUSCRIPT IN THE LIBRARY OF THE ROYAL IRISH ACADEMY ;
    WITH A TRANSLATION AND NOTES, BY JOHN O'DONOVAN.

    I will look at the various Ui Maine branches with a view to finding S5488 matches and checking downstream SNP's and Genetic Distance

    Starting with CLANN CERNAIGH we find the following matches with the unique Ui Maine S5488 signature

    443955 Michael O'Loughlin,
    210550 John F. Cullen
    406631 Pleasant H. Kennedy
    218112 Lucas Malachi Conry,
    44513 King (Conroy)
    Patrick Conlin,
    N126262 Jacob Fanning, 3EDN4
    173456 Lionel Ewen Noel McLaughlin
    324600 Conlon
    205682 Sheehan

    Note that I am only showing one example of individual names here but there are multiple examples of some names

    Remarkably of the Nine surname branches of CLANN CERNAIGH Seven of these are represented by the S5488 Ui Maine signature

    If we do some Genetic distance comparisons between the above the following have tested to 111 markers

    443955 Michael O'Loughlin
    210550 John F. Cullen
    N126262 Patrick Conlin
    44513 King (Conroy)

    The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

    The genetic distance from O'Loughlin to Conlin at 111 markers is 17 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

    The genetic distance from Conlon to Cullen at 111 markers is 18 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1400 years ago

    This shows a remarkable consistency which is the pattern amongst the various S5488 branches which indicates that these are genuine pedigree matches however because any of the rest of the matches above have not tested to 111 markers then this is a provisional 8th Century date for CLANN CERNAIGH

    If we look at 44513 King (Conroy) compared to the other 111 marker matches we find the following

    The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Cullen at 111 markers is 15 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1200 years ago

    The genetic distance from King (Conroy) to Conlen at 111 markers is 16 which gives them a common ancestor from approximately 1300 years ago

    Again we find the same type of consistency which all points to a Common Big Ancestor consistent with the Ui Maine pedigree

    THE CLANN CAIRPRI CRUIM.

    Cairpri Crom had one son, namely, Cormac.

    Cormac had two
    sons, viz.,

    Eoghan Finn and Eoghan Buac.

    From Eoghan Finn, the Northern Ui Maine are descended, and

    From Eoghan Buac, the Southern Ui Maine.

    Eoghan Finn had four sons, namely, Dicholla, Fithchellach, Maelanfaidh,
    Scannlan,

    THE CLANN CERNAIGH HERE.

    Connagan, son of Cernach, son of Ailell, son of Cernach, son of Coscrach, son of Fidhchellach, son of Dicholla, son of Eoghan Finn.

    Because we have Seven out of Nine surnames associated with Clan Cernaigh with the S5488 signature this represents without doubt a real bloodline

    Here is the pedigree from Colla Da Chrioch to Clan Cernaigh

    Colla Da Chrioch 4th Century AD -> Bresal -> Dallan -> Lughaidh -> The two Eoghains

    Connagan, son of Cernach, son of Ailell, son of Cernach, son of Coscrach, son of Fidhchellach, son of Dicholla, son of Eoghan Finn

    This shows nine generations from Colla Da Chrioch to Clan Cernach which giving around three generations per hundred years brings us to around the Seventh Century which is consistent with the genetic distances shown between the S5488 Ui Maine people shown above at 111 markers

    More to follow
    Last edited by oneillabu; 02-17-2017 at 10:42 PM.

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by CillKenny View Post
    Robert, thanks for that. For anyone interested here are the links to two very interesting lectures on the O'Briens at GGI 2016.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp-1bfxaXYs (includes a bit at the end from Conor O'Brien - Baron Inchiquin)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoNNHRWIXQ0
    I was there at this Genetic Genealogy Ireland conference and presented as well. Dennis O'Brien, Dennis Wright and myself are the admins for the L226 project. All three of us were at this conference giving presentations. Conor watched the Barrymore presentation and is willing to give any necessary relative approval for testing the remains of some of Brian Boru's male descendants. He is quite interested in helping Dennis O'Brien with YDNA research on Brian Boru's line. There were a lot of high quality YDNA presentations at this conference - Maurice Gleason does a very good job of getting interesting speakers every year.

    Dennis O'Brien has driven this testing but is not real active in the L226 Activity Feed or this forum. So I am just trying make others aware of his research. There is a lot of interest of which YSNPs are associated with the Brian Boru line. It is very surprising that there are around ten other branches under L226 that have O'Briens that can not be descendants of Brian Boru since the YSNP testing results are very distant to the chain of YSNPs associated with Brian Boru's line. Many of these lines have genetic distance of seven or less at 67 markers - but can not be related to Brian Boru's line since these other branches are much older than Brian Boru's chain of YSNPs. In fact, when I sort all the lowest genetic distance from the L226 signature that have been YSNP tested, I was shocked to find a whopping 80 % error in simplistic genetic distance matching methodology. YSNPs really matter in this time frame - YSTRs are just not reliable in predicting relatedness without extensive YSNP testing.

    Also, I am really amazed that parallel mutations are so numerous under L226 (and probably with other similar aged haplogroups). For 391, there are 19 branches in the L226 haplotree with 391 (11>10) and 7 branches with 391 (11>12). Submissions having these values are 45 with 391 (11>10) and 13 with 391 (11>12). This is with only 78 % charted, so the number of branches resulting parallel mutations will go even higher as more can be charted. So just for what has been charted to date, there are 24 parallel mutations of just 391. For other YSTRs here are the parallel mutations found: 393 - 7; 390 - 16, 19 - 7, 391 - 24, 385a - 6, 385b - 19. Most of the earlier branches under L226 do not have any early YSTR mutations associated with the branches that would greatly reduce the numbers of parallel mutations. Around half of the branches under L226 have no YSTR mutation associated with the branch. There is one large exception of 481 (22>23) that covers 13 branches which starts at ZZ34_1 which is prior to Brian Boru but in his string of YSNP mutations from L226 to present.
    Last edited by RobertCasey; 02-18-2017 at 01:16 AM.

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobertCasey For This Useful Post:

     CannabisErectusHibernius (02-18-2017), Saetro (02-19-2017)

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