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Thread: 24,000 year old Y DNA R AND MTDNA U FOUND IN SIBERIA!!!!

  1. #171
    Senior Member Richard A. Rocca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Although the core of the report in focused on a different part of Siberia -Tranbaikal - this thesis is nonetheless very useful as an overview of the Siberian palaeolithic and also has some nice maps that help gets one's head around the geography of the area.

    http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/Dis...rry_040710.pdf


    It is interesting in that it does discuss in the final part the issue of human movement and again raises the scenario that substantial parts of Siberia except perhaps the extreme south were abandoned in the LGM leaving it possible for late upper palaeolithic microblade groups from the south to recolonise large areas that had been abandoned. Our R boy at Mal'ta seems to have belonged to the latest stage of the middle upper palaeolithic traditions that abandoned much of Siberia during the LGM and were later replaced by the microblade groups from the south. I rather fancy that the latter were not R people and more likely the ancestors of the non-R Siberian peoples. So, again it seems that the Mal'ta burial was really the final throws of the middle upper palaeolithic culture of the area. However, I still am a bit unclear as to why the Malta-Buret culture is apparently rather unique.
    If the Mal'ta group abandoned their position, wouldn't they have gone south, only to re-migrate back north thousands of years later?
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  2. #172
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    Wikipedia reference to Mal'ta

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta-Buret%27_culture says (ca. 18,000 to 15,000 BP) for datation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta_Venus says "These figurines are about 23,000 years old."

  3. #173
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    Here is a link to the science press release:

    Ancient DNA Links Native Americans With Europe

    Some excerpts:

    Now comes a surprising twist, from the complete nuclear genome of a Siberian boy who died 24,000 years ago—the oldest complete genome of a modern human sequenced to date. His DNA shows close ties to those of today's Native Americans. Yet he apparently descended not from East Asians, but from people who had lived in Europe or western Asia. The finding suggests that about a third of the ancestry of today's Native Americans can be traced to "western Eurasia," with the other two-thirds coming from eastern Asia, according to a talk at a meeting* here by ancient DNA expert Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen. It also implies that traces of European ancestry previously detected in modern Native Americans do not come solely from mixing with European colonists, as most scientists had assumed, but have much deeper roots.

    [...]

    Willerslev reported that the team was able to sequence the boy's genome, and also to radiocarbon date the bone. The team then used a variety of statistical methods to compare the genome with that of living populations. They found that a portion of the boy's genome is shared only by today's Native Americans and no other groups, showing a close relationship. Yet the child's Y chromosome belongs to a genetic group called Y haplogroup R, and its mitochondrial DNA to a haplogroup U. Today, those haplogroups are found almost exclusively in people living in Europe and regions of Asia west of the Altai Mountains, which are near the borders of Russia, China, and Mongolia.

    [...]

    The team proposes a relatively simple scenario: Before 24,000 years ago, the ancestors of Native Americans and the ancestors of today's East Asians split into distinct groups. The Mal'ta child represents a population of Native American ancestors who moved into Siberia, probably from Europe or west Asia. Then, sometime after the Mal'ta boy died, this population mixed with East Asians. The new, admixed population eventually made its way to the Americas. Exactly when and where the admixture happened is not clear, Willerslev said. But the deep roots in Europe or west Asia could help explain features of some Paleoamerican skeletons and of Native American DNA today. "The west Eurasian [genetic] signatures that we very often find in today's Native Americans don't all come from postcolonial admixture," Willerslev said in his talk. "Some of them are ancient."

    The talk sparked lively exchange, and not everyone was ready to buy the team's scenario, at least until they can read the full paper, which is in press at Nature. "This is a lot to hang on one skeleton," Mulligan says. Willerslev said during the discussion that his group is now trying to sequence the genomes of skeletons "further west."

  4. #174
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
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    From the maps I have seen, a massive area of desert had formed to the south in the LGM that would surely have been fatal to hunter gatherers to cross at that time. It seems to me from those maps that the family of the R boy at Mal'ta may have lost the option of a route south by not migrating a thousand years or two earlier. They kind of got pincered between perishing cold conditions in the north and extreme aridity to the south. If they had left a little earlier they might have made it south before the huge band of deserts formed between Siberia and south Asia. R2 was old enough and has a pattern suggestive of the possibility that it made that journey early enough to beat the desertification. My impression is that the R* ancestral to R1 didnt and couldnt have made that journey as they lingered to the bitter end in Siberia - the Mal'ta boy really is the youngest reliable date for the middle upper palaeolithic culture before the abandonment and could have been practically the last generation to live there. If they abandoned just after - say 22000BC then they had to head west as there was really no other option.

    Believe me I didnt think that until this new data emerged. Now we can see the date, the culture, the climatic situation etc that the R boy lived and died in it changes the options a little IMO. It just seems much much more logical for the group at Malta to head west north of the deserts of LGM central Asia. The best option to escape by 22000BC would seem to move along the extreme southern edge of the steppe tundra belt just north of the deserts band in central Asia - I would imagine at roughly the latitude of the southern Urals and what is now the northern part of the Caspian but was then dry land. After they reached the Caspian area - who knows. The Caspian was then much smaller and although deserts lay between the north and south shores, the shore itself surely could be followed. That sea was far smaller in the LGM followed by being vastly larger than today in the immediate post-LGM era. That would make archaeological recovery very problematic as the Caspian LGM shores are under the current sea. So, it seems unlikely we will ever be able to construct what went on around it in the LGM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    If the Mal'ta group abandoned their position, wouldn't they have gone south, only to re-migrate back north thousands of years later?

  5. #175
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
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    The wiki and hermitage museum entries are very out of date and confusing for this site/culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by palamede View Post
    Wikipedia reference to Mal'ta

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta-Buret%27_culture says (ca. 18,000 to 15,000 BP) for datation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta_Venus says "These figurines are about 23,000 years old."

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    Here is the original article Surprising aDNA results from Paleolithic Siberia (including Y-DNA R).

    According to leaks from the Paleoamerican Odyssey conference, a 24,000-year-old Siberian sample from the Mal'ta archeological site, near Lake Baikal, appears genetically like a mix between modern Europeans, Amerindians and Oceanians...
    Based on Dodecad Globe13 and HarappaWorld Native Americans cluster with Europeans.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ull=1#post2472
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ll=1#post11790

  7. #177
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
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    We know a likely R* person was living in local version of the middle upper palaeolithic culture of Siberia around 22000BC. We also know from radiocarbon dates that this was the end for this culture. We also know that this boy was at the tail end of the occupation of the site that had lasted a millennia or two. We also know that in general middle upper palaeolithic cultures had been present in Siberia for about 10000 years before the boy's death. Some say they have a resemblance to European cultures of the period.

    This all raises the question as to how widespread was this R* lineage at the time of the boy's death? Was it specific to the Malta-Buret group or was it more general. Well the way I look at it, R*is probably at least 2 or 3000 years older than this burial. Karafet gave a central date of 25000BC and he seems to have slighly underestimated the date of R1 so I would allow for R* to be as old as 30000BC. Regardless R seems to have existed at least 3000 years before the death of the boy at Malta and maybe even a few more millennia earlier than that. That might even make R earlier than any of the Mal'ta-Buret culture dates. I actually have a hunch that the Mal'ta-Buret cultures represent people displaced there by the LGM c. 24000BC from somewhere further even worse effected.

  8. #178
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Both assumptions by Eske Willerslev may prove incorrect if taken in literal terms.

    1. Our likely R* boy in Siberia may have shared some autosomal characteristics with modern Native Americans simply because he shared same with people not too distantly related who carried Y-DNA Q, rather than his immediate family being part of the trek into North America.

    2. Our likely R* boy in Siberia died about age 4, so he personally was not an ancestor of any Europeans. Whether any of his immediate family survived to trek westwards to the Caspian, we don't know. Fairly closely related bands of hunters on the steppe could have divided into different refuges as the LGM took hold.

    This discovery is one very exciting piece of evidence. I'm going to annoy people once again with my eternal cry "we need more aDNA."

  9. #179
    Senior Member Jean M's Avatar
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    Gregory Cochran and Razib Khan have weighed in with their comments:

    Cochran, The First of the Mohicans 25 October: http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/1...-the-mohicans/

    I talked about some pieces of this puzzle earlier: Patterson and Reich found an Amerindian-like component in Europeans, especially northern Europeans. Their first calculations showed such admixture in all Europeans other than Sardinians and Basques: later calculations found that all Europeans had this admixture, with the Sardinians and Basques having the least. Europeans (those they looked at) averaged around 25-35% of this Amerindian-like component. It might be higher in Scandinavia and the eastern Baltic. This is all theory, based on existing populations.
    Khan, Burning down the trees in historical population genetics 27 October: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...tion-genetics/

    This begs the question, do any populations exist in an “unadmixed form”? What does that even mean?

  10. #180
    Senior Member alan's Avatar
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    What is it with all those hate filled people trying to downplay the nativeness of native Americans. The bottom line is that whatever their genetic mix and whether or not it was partly west Eurasian in type, they still remain the natives. They still have actual ancestry on the soil going back to 14000bc or whatever it is regardless of what the mix was, while descendants of European settlers of the 16th century AD onwards remain just that. Many people have got a bit of both apparently. However, none of that detracts from what happened to the native Americans as a result of the European settlements. Some people seem to think that a more west Eurasian element among them somehow would undermine their distinct nativeness. That is crazy. They still preceded the ancestors of 99% of historic European setters by around 15000 years.

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