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Thread: Z2103 (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103) & Z2105

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    Z2103 (R1b-P25>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103) & Z2105

    This is essentially what we think of as L23xL51, or the old L23* people. The remnant of L23+ L51- people appear to Z2103+ Z2105+. I'm using Z2103 as the "lead with" SNP because it is listed first by ISOGG, it is ordered as often as Z2105 and the R1b Ht35 (new) project admins use it as their "lead with" label. They are two separate SNPs though, and one day we might find out one is older than the other.

    Today, we know of two good sized subclades under Z2103, L277 and L584. However, there also is a paragroup of true Z2103* people. In the R1b-Early_Haplotypes spreadsheet I label haplotypes that seem to fit into Z2103 with labels starting with "mml2303". The 23 is of course L23 and the "03" is just a short designator for Z2103. This is sorting purposes primarily.

    Unlike M269*, we do have a lot of Z2103 like haplotypes out there. Z2103, frequency-wise, dominates the "eastern" R1b, if such a thing can be said fairly. Many people associate its modal with the Ht35 haplotype, or also call it the Armenian Haplotype. Perhaps it is the lesser (#s wise) equivalent of WAMH. Maybe it should have been EBMMH for R1b Eastern Black Sea/Mediterranean Modal Haplotype...

    There are a couple of hundred long haplotypes for Z2103 so I think variance calculations on it are fair game. All I can say it is appears significantly older than nephew L11 (the WAMH folks) and probably, I think, than brother L51. One anomaly that I intend to dig into further is that part of what drives Z2103 variance is up is people associated with Armenia. I'm not sure if this means the mix is well balanced there and this is an origin or if this a crossroads geography... or maybe its just that our Z2103 everywhere else is too limited. I wish we had Greece and Calabria better tested.

    One thing I've noticed is that 406s1 splits Z2103 fairly nicely. Has anyone else noticed this? L277 appears to be a subset of the 406s1<=10 side of Z2103 and L584 appears to be a subset of the 406s1>=11 side of Z2103.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    This is essentially what we think of as L23xL51, or the old L23* people. The remnant of L23+ L51- people appear to Z2103+ Z2105+. I'm using Z2103 as the "lead with" SNP because it is listed first by ISOGG, it is ordered as often as Z2105 and the R1b Ht35 (new) project admins use it as their "lead with" label. They are two separate SNPs though, and one day we might find out one is older than the other.

    Today, we know of two good sized subclades under Z2103, L277 and L584. However, there also is a paragroup of true Z2103* people. In the R1b-Early_Haplotypes spreadsheet I label haplotypes that seem to fit into Z2103 with labels starting with "mml2303". The 23 is of course L23 and the "03" is just a short designator for Z2103. This is sorting purposes primarily.

    Unlike M269*, we do have a lot of Z2103 like haplotypes out there. Z2103, frequency-wise, dominates the "eastern" R1b, if such a thing can be said fairly. Many people associate its modal with the Ht35 haplotype, or also call it the Armenian Haplotype. Perhaps it is the lesser (#s wise) equivalent of WAMH. Maybe it should have been EBMMH for R1b Eastern Black Sea/Mediterranean Modal Haplotype...

    There are a couple of hundred long haplotypes for Z2103 so I think variance calculations on it are fair game. All I can say it is appears significantly older than nephew L11 (the WAMH folks) and probably, I think, than brother L51. One anomaly that I intend to dig into further is that part of what drives Z2103 variance is up is people associated with Armenia. I'm not sure if this means the mix is well balanced there and this is an origin or if this a crossroads geography... or maybe its just that our Z2103 everywhere else is too limited. I wish we had Greece and Calabria better tested.

    One thing I've noticed is that 406s1 splits Z2103 fairly nicely. Has anyone else noticed this? L277 appears to be a subset of the 406s1<=10 side of Z2103 and L584 appears to be a subset of the 406s1>=11 side of Z2103.
    Total agreement with renaming "old L23" to Z2103 as the base of the branch that includes L277, L584 and possibly CTS7822. This group, also known as the EBMMH or R1b Eastern Black Sea/Mediterranean Modal Haplotype, is loving all the attention it's getting right now.

    Do we have enough Geno2.0 kits that have tested Z2103, Z2105, L277 and L584?

    Hopefully the new spreadsheet (and tree) will result in more snp testing because of the clarity it brings. This gives project managers and individuals the information they need for snp testing Z2103 and beyond.

    Looking at 406s1>=11 and L584 a few exceptions can be found. Kits 92187, 166322 and 213562 are 406s1=10. Thanks for the tip about 406s1. It helps.

    Right next to DYF406s1 is DYS511. Mike you mentioned my (257842) DYS511=11 was interesting before it was snp tested. Are you seeing anything with DYS511 in these early R1b haplotypes?

    I encourage everybody to really study the Early R1b Haplotypes workbook.
    Last edited by Joe B; 10-19-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  4. #3
    My DYS406S1 is 10 and I am R-Z2105+ (FTDNA) L277- L584- (23andMe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    My DYS406S1 is 10 and I am R-Z2105+ (FTDNA) L277- L584- (23andMe).
    I would say the majority of R-Z2103* or mml2303-a are DYS406S1=10.

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    I think it is only a matter of time that R1b Z2103/ R-M269(L23) will show a connection with Italian-Albanian-Macedonian-Hittite-Iranian tribes[Osset/Alans] and had a presence on the Iranian plateau connecting to Anatolia in the west and Hindu Kush and Himalaya in the east.






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