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Thread: The Normans

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    How many of these L21 people are true Normans in the sense that they would be descended from the actual Northmen?? How many would be of Brythonic descent? I had actually considered a Brythonic back migration of sorts to explain some of the L21 that might show up. Of course I didn't say that every L21 result amongst a person in Ireland who is claiming Norman descent would be a red-herring either. In general? You bet.
    No, I wouldn't bet on that at all. L21 is common in Normandy. A person of actual Norman descent in Ireland - or anywhere else - is very likely to be L21+, since R-L21 is one of the most frequent y haplogroups in Normandy. Or do facts not matter?

    Most of the Frenchmen - and many of them are actual French citizens - in the R-L21 Plus Project do not have any haplotype neighbors at all. If they were transplanted Britons, one would expect them to have some haplotype neighbors within 1500 years or so who are Welshmen or Cornishmen. They don't. Even if they were the descendants of transplanted Britons, the British exodus to Bretagne (no such exodus to Normandy is known) took place in the 5th and 6th centuries: long before the Norman Conquest.

    From what I have seen, the "Northmen" for whom Normandy was named formed a thin veneer at the very top of society. Most of them were probably I-M253, with some R-U106, but not a lot of either has shown up in Normandy, as far as I know. The bulk of the population would have been Gallo-Roman natives, and many of those would have been R-L21. Of course, L21 is also not uncommon in Norway, where at least some of the "Northmen" who went to Normandy are said to have come from. That's not something I care much about, however.

    I don't know how much R-SRY2627 there is in Normandy; some probably, but only one has shown up in the Normandy Y-DNA Project thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    I'm referring to a small percentage here and if we're going with the thought these people were an elite few, then I am correct in saying that true Normans, not those who happen to live in Normandy, are more likely to be of a haplo-group that is reflective of Scandinavia. Was L21 along with other P312 clades brought into/back to the Isles and then Ireland? Of course, but I do not believe they represent the true Scandinavian Normans. Who's to say that the Native population in Normandy didn't do the same thing that the Native populations in the Isles and Ireland did? Simply adopting a prestigious name in order to get a leg up in society.
    Those involved in genetic genealogy who can actually trace their ancestry to Normandy are few, and by far most of them are French citizens or French Canadians. Some are Cajuns from Louisiana, who are the descendants of transplanted French Canadians. They certainly have a far far better claim to the title of Norman than most people of British Isles descent who imagine they have a Norman-descended surname but have absolutely no other provable connection to Normandy. I administered the Normandy Y-DNA Project for awhile (but was never a member myself) and I can tell you there are hordes of people who apply for membership in it who read on some web site somewhere or in some book that their last name was brought to England by the Normans. One would think the Normans completely overran and repopulated the place! But none of those people can establish any sort of real connection to Normandy. I have seen web sites that attribute my own surname to the Normans or to a Breton knight called Fitzstephen. Fact or fiction? I don't know, but either way, I make no claim to be a Norman or a Breton. I have better claim on the title of West Virginian.

    As for "true Normans", meaning transplanted Scandinavians, I don't think their numbers in Normandy were ever very large. The Normans very quickly adopted the French language and, I believe, were absorbed and assimilated by the native Gallo-Roman population, which was probably largely R-L21, R-U152, and R-DF27 (some of that latter probably R-SRY2627). By the time the Normans went to Britain as conquerors, they weren't the same people they were a century or more earlier.

    There was a large Breton contingent in William the Conqueror's army. Busby et al found L21 at 40% or more in Bretagne.

    By the way, the Royal House of Stewart, family of a number of famous kings and queens of Scotland and England, has a pretty good claim on descent from Alan Fitz Flaad, a Breton knight born about 1070 (too late to have been in William's army, however). They have tested L21+ (actually L21>DF13>DF41>L745). Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, y-dna descendant of King Charles II, tested with ScotlandsDNA. He also has an STR match with a known descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel, who fought at the Battle of Culloden.
    Last edited by rms2; 10-23-2013 at 12:29 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    No, I wouldn't bet on that at all. L21 is common in Normandy. A person of actual Norman descent in Ireland - or anywhere else - is very likely to be L21+, since R-L21 is one of the most frequent y haplogroups in Normandy. Or do facts not matter?

    Most of the Frenchmen - and many of them are actual French citizens - in the R-L21 Plus Project do not have any haplotype neighbors at all. If they were transplanted Britons, one would expect them to have some haplotype neighbors within 1500 years or so who are Welshmen or Cornishmen. They don't. Even if they were the descendants of transplanted Britons, the British exodus to Bretagne (no such exodus to Normandy is known) took place in the 5th and 6th centuries: long before the Norman Conquest.

    From what I have seen, the "Northmen" for whom Normandy was named formed a thin veneer at the very top of society. Most of them were probably I-M253, with some R-U106, but not a lot of either has shown up in Normandy, as far as I know. The bulk of the population would have been Gallo-Roman natives, and many of those would have been R-L21. Of course, L21 is also not uncommon in Norway, where at least some of the "Northmen" who went to Normandy are said to have come from. That's not something I care much about, however.

    I don't know how much R-SRY2627 there is in Normandy; some probably, but only one has shown up in the Normandy Y-DNA Project thus far.



    Those involved in genetic genealogy who can actually trace their ancestry to Normandy are few, and by far most of them are French citizens or French Canadians. Some are Cajuns from Louisiana, who are the descendants of transplanted French Canadians. They certainly have a far far better claim to the title of Norman than most people of British Isles descent who imagine they have a Norman-descended surname but have absolutely no other provable connection to Normandy. I administered the Normandy Y-DNA Project for awhile (but was never a member myself) and I can tell you there are hordes of people who apply for membership in it who read on some web site somewhere or in some book that their last name was brought to England by the Normans. One would think the Normans completely overran and repopulated the place! But none of those people can establish any sort of real connection to Normandy. I have seen web sites that attribute my own surname to the Normans or to a Breton knight called Fitzstephen. Fact or fiction? I don't know, but either way, I make no claim to be a Norman or a Breton. I have better claim on the title of West Virginian.

    As for "true Normans", meaning transplanted Scandinavians, I don't think their numbers in Normandy were ever very large. The Normans very quickly adopted the French language and, I believe, were absorbed and assimilated by the native Gallo-Roman population, which was probably largely R-L21, R-U152, and R-DF27 (some of that latter probably R-SRY2627). By the time the Normans went to Britain as conquerors, they weren't the same people they were a century or more earlier.

    There was a large Breton contingent in William the Conqueror's army. Busby et al found L21 at 40% or more in Bretagne.

    By the way, the Royal House of Stewart, family of a number of famous kings and queens of Scotland and England, has a pretty good claim on descent from Alan Fitz Flaad, a Breton knight born about 1070 (too late to have been in William's army, however). They have tested L21+ (actually L21>DF13>DF41>L745). Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, y-dna descendant of King Charles II, tested with ScotlandsDNA. He also has an STR match with a known descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel, who fought at the Battle of Culloden.
    I was under the impression that the Normans by and large didn't have much of a genetic impact on Ireland or England. I was including all the Normans when I said that, both the Gallo and Scandinavian types (referencing back to my statement about SRY2627 being infrequent in the Isles). So, I still stand by my belief that most of the families in Ireland claiming Norman descent are more likely to have adopted the name from an invading Norman lord. I'd say for the most part, the elites would most likely have an actual claim to Scandinavian heritage. Not all of them, but most of them. We both agree that the true "Norsemen" were in the minority in a group which from what I've seen thus far, has left little mention of itself in a genetic sense.

    I also never said L21 wasn't common in Brittany and Normandy by extension, so I don't know where you're getting that I'm ignoring that. My point, if you read my post carefully, was that the true, actual Norsemen were not likely to be L21. Not an impossibility, just not likely. If the French L21 Normans aren't showing any neighbors anywhere else, then how do you expect me to believe that they have large amounts of Irish or English cousins? Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying L21 didn't make its way into England and Ireland with the Normans, but I feel that they, like SRY2627 didn't overturn any large number of the male population either.

    I do agree that it is very, very hard to claim and lay out a convincing case for Norman heritage, be it Scandinavian or Gallo. I'm certainly not claiming it to be an absolute truth in my case. I'm merely presenting a fairly strong theory, in my opinion, that I may have descended from an invading "Norman". If I didn't have a pretty good claim to kinship to an actual person whose ancestry ultimately hails from a naval town right on the border with Normandy, I wouldn't be as confident in my theory. Our tmrca fits somewhat perfectly, (using an imperfect calculator of course ), to around an age that would place our Y-lines diverging just before William's advance.
     
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    If we are talking about William's invasion forces of 1066 then we need to keep in mind that he gathered troops from far and wide.

    As the Wiki says (citing references) "William assembled a large invasion fleet and an army gathered from Normandy and all over France, including large contingents from Brittany and Flanders. He mustered his forces at Saint-Valery-sur-Somme and was ready to cross the Channel by about 12 August. The exact numbers and composition of William's force are unknown."

    On top of that, during the years of Norman rule, there were comings and goings between England and France of "Norman" settlers, be they original troops or administrative staff or simply immigrants.

    When Strongbow assembled his invasion forces 103 years after the Conquest and headed to Ireland he drew from whoever he could draft in Wales.

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    I think part of the problem is defining what it means to be Norman. From a British Isles point of view I think the people who thought of themselves as being derived from "Anglo-Normans" include those that might have had any one of a number of backgrounds, including ancient Scandinavian, Gallis, Hiberno-Norse, Breton, Flemish and even Welsh... prior to becoming "Anglo-Norman".

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    I was under the impression that the Normans by and large didn't have much of a genetic impact on Ireland or England. I was including all the Normans when I said that, both the Gallo and Scandinavian types (referencing back to my statement about SRY2627 being infrequent in the Isles). So, I still stand by my belief that most of the families in Ireland claiming Norman descent are more likely to have adopted the name from an invading Norman lord. I'd say for the most part, the elites would most likely have an actual claim to Scandinavian heritage. Not all of them, but most of them. We both agree that the true "Norsemen" were in the minority in a group which from what I've seen thus far, has left little mention of itself in a genetic sense.
    ...
    I really don't think we know what the genetic impact was. It seems like it would be small but I don't know how one can discern this for the following reasons.

    1) Anglo-Normans were a mix of people from multiple origins from Scandinavia to the Low Countries to much of France with possibly Gael and Briton mixed in before an arrival in the Isles. The haplogroup mix in northern France looks more like Ireland than England.
    2) Anglo-Normans further mixed in England as they went on to Scotland, Wales and finally to Ireland.
    3) The sources of Norsemen (and others) in Normandy were also in many cases mixed haplogroup-wise.

    How's one to say to who is returning home versus a long time native versus just a distant, distant relation from somewhere else?

    A major strength of the Norman movement seems to be their ability to ally and integrate with others. I would consider them internationalists from the git-go.
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  9. #35
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    I know the history of southern Italy.
    Here the Normans ruled nearly two hundred years
    Yet I do not see the maps of FTDNA U106, U198, L1, L48
    I think the Normans did not belong to any of These clade.
    I see four L21 and two SRY2627.
    Perhaps these have more chance ..
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    Good points, Mike. I admit, I don't know much about L21. Given its unusually high frequency in Ireland and the fact that no one has yet produced evidence for a subclade specific to both those Norman derived L21 people and Hiberno-Irish L21; I just didn't see much of a case for actual Norman origins for a lot of the Irish families who probably just adopted the name. Add to that, what you have just said about the Normans being willing to integrate others into their flock and their route into Ireland, it would seem that a lot of the L21 the Normans brought to Ireland, whatever the extent, was likely from Wales, England and Scotland. Since the French L21 Normans seem to be unique , I'd venture to say their input wasn't as strong as those from the Isles.
     
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    Here is what I was primarily responding to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack
    Of course I didn't say that every L21 result amongst a person in Ireland who is claiming Norman descent would be a red-herring either. In general? You bet.
    In other words, and based on your words in an earlier post, you are saying Irishmen who are L21+ who claim Norman descent and have what are regarded as Norman surnames are really the descendants of "natives" who adopted those surnames. That is actually what you said, and then you reiterated it in the remark I quoted above.

    I merely pointed out that L21 is actually very frequent in Normandy, so an L21+ Irishman with a Norman claim and a Norman surname is as likely to be the actual descendant of a Norman as otherwise.

    We were also discussing y-dna in Normandy itself, and, to a certain extent neighboring Bretagne, but not the y-dna of the other various contingents in William's army.

    The point I made about the French members of the R-L21 Plus Project who have ancestry in Normandy not having haplotype neighbors who are Welshmen or Cornishmen was meant as a counter to the claim that they are the descendants of Britons, not to support a claim that any particular person of British or Irish ancestry is the descendant of a Norman. Since I was not using Norman French L21s to support some British or Irish person's claim of Norman descent, it's a non-sequitur to attempt to imply that because they don't have "large numbers of Irish or English cousins", therefore the Normans who went to England and Ireland included none who were L21+. It's also trying to have things both ways, i.e., first to claim they are the descendants of transplanted Britons, and then, when it turns out they probably aren't, to use that to imply they should likewise have lots of English and Irish haplotype neighbors if they are really Normans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    Good points, Mike. I admit, I don't know much about L21. Given its unusually high frequency in Ireland and the fact that no one has yet produced evidence for a subclade specific to both those Norman derived L21 people and Hiberno-Irish L21; I just didn't see much of a case for actual Norman origins for a lot of the Irish families who probably just adopted the name.
    I have no doubt that many old Gaelic families adopted Norman surnames in Ireland. We also have Anglo-Normans in Ireland adopting Gaelicized surnames. I don't think you can make the case for either a Gaelic or Anglo-Norman origin solely on the basis of L21+ or L21-. That's all I'm saying. L21 is too old and too complex to assign (or not assign) to relatively youthful and mixed groups such as the Normans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    it would seem that a lot of the L21 the Normans brought to Ireland, whatever the extent, was likely from Wales, England and Scotland.

    Since the French L21 Normans seem to be unique , I'd venture to say their input wasn't as strong as those from the Isles.
    This is why I was trying to point how one defines Normans is important. The Anglo-Norman Invaders of Ireland, might have had Welsh and even English Y DNA with them, which could have brought along L21 in either case. Remember we are talking 1070 AD so L21 in England could have been indiscernible in the English populations at that time.

    So what is a French L21? We have Bretons which may have been just old Britons and then we have the Gauls, even some Hiberno-Vikings in the Normandy area. I'm not sure that French L21 is unique.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 10-23-2013 at 07:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here is what I was primarily responding to:



    In other words, and based on your words in an earlier post, you are saying Irishmen who are L21+ who claim Norman descent and have what are regarded as Norman surnames are really the descendants of "natives" who adopted those surnames. That is actually what you said, and then you reiterated it in the remark I quoted above.

    I merely pointed out that L21 is actually very frequent in Normandy, so an L21+ Irishman with a Norman claim and a Norman surname is as likely to be the actual descendant of a Norman as otherwise.

    We were also discussing y-dna in Normandy itself, and, to a certain extent neighboring Bretagne, but not the y-dna of the other various contingents in William's army.

    The point I made about the French members of the R-L21 Plus Project who have ancestry in Normandy not having haplotype neighbors who are Welshmen or Cornishmen was meant as a counter to the claim that they are the descendants of Britons, not to support a claim that any particular person of British or Irish ancestry is the descendant of a Norman. Since I was not using Norman French L21s to support some British or Irish person's claim of Norman descent, it's a non-sequitur to attempt to imply that because they don't have "large numbers of Irish or English cousins", therefore the Normans who went to England and Ireland included none who were L21+. It's also trying to have things both ways, i.e., first to claim they are the descendants of transplanted Britons, and then, when it turns out they probably aren't, to use that to imply they should likewise have lots of English and Irish haplotype neighbors if they are really Normans.
    I initially said, that in most cases, not all, that it is the result of a native family adopting the name. I didn't present it in the black and white manner that you did. If there are distinct L21 clades that indicate Norman ancestry that are also found in Ireland, then I ask that you provide evidence for them. From what little I know of the L21 in Ireland, it seems that it is mostly DF13? I can't remember the exact subclades, but I do remember reading that Continental and Isles L21 are distinct from each other. Thats my main point regarding Norman L21, is there a distinct group found in Northern france that is also found in Ireland? Is there continental derived L21 amongst these Irish families claiming Norman origins? From what I've seen most of it is DF13, which is highly localized to Ireland and the Isles.

    You're expanding upon an idea which i mentioned but did not claim to be my general thought on the subject. I never explicitly said that I believed that the French normans were primarily the descendants of Cornish and Welsh britons. I asked you how many of them are. I quoted you in saying that French L21 in Normandy doesn't have any haplotype neighbors. I didn't do at all what you said in your closing paragraph. I said that it is very unlikely that L21 would represent true Northmen, as in the actual Scandinavians who settled there. I never said L21 wasn't present in Normandy and that the "Normans" couldn't have brought it with them. I said that genetic impact (Of Norman derived L21) appears to be minimal and I am basing that off of the high amount of DF13 derived sub clades in Ireland and the lack of those specific to the continent.

    Here is what you said and what I quoted you on.. "Most of the Frenchmen - and many of them are actual French citizens - in the R-L21 Plus Project do not have any haplotype neighbors at all."

    I'm assuming that you're including those specific to Normandy?

    I apologize for any confusion.
    Last edited by Gray Fox; 10-23-2013 at 06:31 PM.
     
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    It's important to point out that the Normans in Ireland are really "Cambro-Normans" the leading lights all been the sons of mixed marriages of Welsh women and "Norman's" who were marchers in Wales. The bulk of their followers were Welsh. This is why Walsh is the 3rd most common surname in Ireland. It reflects the bulk of the soldiery/archers who arrived with the "Cambro-Norman knights"

    In an Irish context there is at least one Irish surname which is anglisced with a "norman twang" eg. Fitzpatrick -> Mac Giolla Phádraig (son of "Giolla Phádraig), there was also Mac Maol Phádraig which is also anglisced nearly totally to Fitzpatrick.

    What's also important to note is that after the colony began to falter in the 14th century that a widespread "Gaelic Reconquista" happened, not only did native lordships win back territoriy but you see a process of Gaelicisation occuring among the "Norman lords", in most cases they switched from speaking French to Irish.

    A prime eample is "Gearóid Iarla" (Earl Gerald) eg. Gerald FitzMaurice FitzGerald (1335–1398) 3rd Earl of Desmond, who wrote poetry both in Irish and Norman-French. He became so "native" that there is a story connecting him to the pre-christian goddess Áine.

    n local legend, Gerald was romantically linked with the goddess Áine,[12] a legend which drew upon a pre-existing local Celtic legend about liaisons between Áine and the King of Munster, Ailill Aulom,[12] but updated it with themes drawn from the Francophone courtly love poetry of Continental Europe,[12][13] in particular the motif of the man who falls in love with a swan maiden.[14][12] The Geraldine claim to an association with Áine represents an extreme degree of Gaelicisation.
    Going on updated Brabant project results which show L21+ at 8.9% in Belgium it wouldn't surprise me if it's higher in Normandy.

    -Paul
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