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Thread: Another R1b distribution problem.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Okay, that was the kind of information I was looking for but don't have the scientific background necessary to figure out. I still think some of the results are weird, but that could be down to sampling methods.
    What are you proposing? Do you think that any significant amounts of R1b entered into North America before 1400 AD? or before 900 AD (as in Viking Era)?

    I haven't seen anything that is really strange about about R1b in North America Native American claimed descendants that can be pinned down to anything other than by migrations and introgression in the historical timeframes.

    I'm not saying there are no possibilities. Anything is possible. I don't see any exhaustive and deep analysis done by any scientific studies that that can pin down that there really is some kind of distribution problem. Is there a study that is claiming an early entry of R1b into North America?
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-11-2013 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What are you proposing? Do you think that any significant amounts of R1b entered into North America before 1400 AD? or before 900 AD (as in Viking Era)?

    I haven't seen anything that is really strange about about R1b in North America Native American claimed descendants that can be pinned down to anything other than by migrations and introgression in the historical timeframes.

    I'm not saying there are no possibilities. Anything is possible. I don't see any exhaustive and deep analysis done by any scientific studies that that can pin down that there really is some kind of distribution problem. Is there a study that is claiming an early entry of R1b into North America?
    I'm saying that the information you provided makes a convincing case that the high level of Y haplotype R in Native North Americans is from a recent European source, but I still think any figures over 50% are surprising, so I was wondering whether the really high figures for some tribal groups would be confirmed or would be found to be exaggerated if more sampling was done. I'm assuming that researchers would at least make some effort to try to screen out those who have obvious partial European ancestry when preparing figures on Native North American haplotypes. And yes, I know all about the founder effect, but given the time frame, I think there's a limit to how much that would have changed the dna structure of some of the more populous tribes.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    ... I still think any figures over 50% are surprising, so I was wondering whether the really high figures for some tribal groups would be confirmed or would be found to be exaggerated if more sampling was done. I'm assuming that researchers would at least make some effort to try to screen out those who have obvious partial European ancestry when preparing figures on Native North American haplotypes....
    Some of these studies aren't necessarily comprehensive and may have limited funding so I don't necessarily expect the kind of research we want. I guess I'm saying I would not assume they had screened or filtered out genealogically known European lineages.

    I'd also be a bit leery of genealogical records for anyone going back too far, particularly in the latter settled/formally governed areas (as we think of it today). I was struck when visiting a beautiful canyon near Sedona, Arizona. It's truly a beautiful area, but I was amazed at an historical monument along side the road that noted the first European settler to the area in the 1890s. I remember thinking it could have been my grandfather's family if he we were from those parts, but it is also quite a contrast to the cathedral in Toledo (which I just visited) about 800 years old. I doubt if the recordkeeping in large parts of the American West amounted to much until very recently.

  4. #34
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    I am not a believer in much if any pre-Columbian European genes in the Americas. All I would concede is that the later the period the more it is theoretically more likely. Its not impossible that the Vikings lefts some genes although there is no clear evidence for this.

    Its not impossible that Celtic monks could have reached the Americas as they may well have reached Iceland although again no real evidence for settlement beyond. The latter did have a strong tradition of heading off on peregranatio sea voyages into the unknown sometimes in boats with no oars or rudders leaving their fate to god and non-rational motives like that could have inspired some to head west.

    There was a long belief that the otherworld lay to the west that seems to go back at least to the copper age in the west where it has been suggested that some sort of sunset belief related to this was the inspiration for the sudden appearance of south-westerly or westerly orientations on megalithic monuments like Wedge Tombs, clava cairns, recumbant stone circles, stone alignments etc in Atlantic parts of the isles from c. 2500BC. Its also common in the stone rows in Brittany although they are poorly dated. So it would almost surprising if some individuals were not inspired by the religious beliefs in pre-Christian times of a western otherworld. I dont need to mention the tales of the voyages or Bran and may other similar episodes mentioned in both Irish tales and actual historical sources in Christian times. Technologically by the late Bronze Age and Iron Age sails and improving boat techology would have made it more feasible for small relgious groups to attempt things like that. Generally speaking it seems just a little less suicidal in that sort of period to me. Its all pure speculation of course.

    There are some rare cases of individual off course Eskimos/Inuit in Kayaks landing in Scotland in the extreme north and even at Aberdeen in the 1600-1900 sort of timeframe. The one that landed in Aberdeen is preserved.

  5. #35
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    I read a good book a while back valled Cod which looked at the importance of Cod fishing in the North Atlantic, supposedly Basques and some English were fishing of the Eastern US just before Coumbus arrived. i wonder if they ever made it to the mainland.
    http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/kurlansky-cod.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by rossa View Post
    I read a good book a while back valled Cod which looked at the importance of Cod fishing in the North Atlantic, supposedly Basques and some English were fishing of the Eastern US just before Coumbus arrived. i wonder if they ever made it to the mainland.
    http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/kurlansky-cod.html
    There have certainly been claims that English and Basque fishermen were active in Newfoundland before Cabot "discovered" it in 1497, but I don't think there's much proof. The lack of evidence may be because at first it seems to have been simply a summer fishery - there's not much evidence of permanent settlements in Newfoundland prior to 1600. Even then, the settlers may have done more eliminating Native dna than altering it. The Beothuk of Newfoundland were declared extinct by 1829. Nevertheless, the east coast was settled much sooner than most other parts of Canada, and I'd expect to find more European admixture among the Micmac than among some other tribes.

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_c...f_the_Americas
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Saguenay
    Sorry, I'm from Russia and this is not my history but to my opinion early viking contact is a well-established concept. Taking into account some years of viking settlement in North America, it's enough to hypothesise that some tribes could receive enough Y-genetization.
    Also, Ojibwe beliefs could help.
    At a later time, one of these miigis appeared in a vision to relate a prophecy. It said that if the Anishinaabeg did not move further west, they would not be able to keep their traditional ways alive because of the many new settlements and pale-skinned peoples who would arrive soon in the east. Their migration path would be symbolized by a series of smaller Turtle Islands, which was confirmed with miigis shells (i.e., cowry shells). After receiving assurance from their "Allied Brothers" (i.e., Mi'kmaq) and "Father" (i.e., Abenaki) of their safety to move inland, the Anishinaabeg gradually migrated west along the Saint Lawrence River to the Ottawa River to Lake Nipissing, and then to the Great Lakes.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe#...ritual_beliefs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo
    There are many reasons to suggest European-American R1b contact circa 1000AD.
    Also, it seems that these "voyagers" should be R1b if consider I-people as native Scandinavians and R1b as Scandinavian inviders. In this case, the further invaders should be also R1b as a Scandinavian military strata. Also, it could be hypothesized why these voyagers was not R1a. Erik the Red was banished from Norway by Harald Fairhair who was Yngling (presumably R1a). Erik and his companions were not Ynglings and were R1b. This could explain the absence of other European Y-clades (namely I and R1a) in North America.
    Last edited by SVR; 06-13-2014 at 12:02 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVR View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_c...f_the_Americas
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Saguenay
    Sorry, I'm from Russia and this is not my history but to my opinion early viking contact is a well-established concept. Taking into account some years of viking settlement in North America, it's enough to hypothesise that some tribes could receive enough Y-genetization.
    Also, Ojibwe beliefs could help.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojibwe#...ritual_beliefs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo
    There are many reasons to suggest European-American R1b contact circa 1000AD.
    Also, it seems that these "voyagers" should be R1b if consider I-people as native Scandinavians and R1b as Scandinavian inviders. In this case, the further invaders should be also R1b as a Scandinavian military strata. Also, it could be hypothesized why these voyagers was not R1a. Erik the Red was banished from Norway by Harald Fairhair who was Yngling (presumably R1a). Erik and his companions were not Ynglings and were R1b. This could explain the absence of other European Y-clades (namely I and R1a) in North America.
    The probability that any single haplogroup had exclusivity in any part of Scandinavia circa 1000 AD is likely close to zero.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rossa View Post
    I read a good book a while back valled Cod which looked at the importance of Cod fishing in the North Atlantic, supposedly Basques and some English were fishing of the Eastern US just before Coumbus arrived. i wonder if they ever made it to the mainland.
    http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/k/kurlansky-cod.html
    I remember on another forum a guy who was Basque on his direct paternal line ended up Q-M3 on his Geno 2.0 test. His grandfather did not come to America until the early 1900s. Unfortunately he never wrote anything else back on the forum. I would have loved to seen if he uncovered anything else.

    Also though this is about Y DNA R, what about mtdna X, various subclades of X2a's, and X2g? They are interestingly only found in North American Native populations, not South America. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/x I recently received an autosmal match who is X2g, they are from the Southern Untied States that they know of since the 1700s. They report their ancestry is British, Irish, and German, not Native. Yet according to the Haplogroup X project X2g is Ojibwa.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    The probability that any single haplogroup had exclusivity in any part of Scandinavia circa 1000 AD is likely close to zero.
    Not in part of Scandinavia. I told about small selected group (may be and most likely been relatives) of R1b bearers from Norway military strata banished by new R1a nobility. These people, mainly men, when establish a settlement in Newfoundland, should take (or snitch) women from local tribes, leaving them on return home. Remnants of one Indian woman were found at Greenland Viking settlement. Somebody of the men could stay there (voluntarily or being captured) beginning Rb1-line. If XVI century Spaniards could, why X century Vikings couldn't? This is a typical bottleneck.
    One more idea: there was a series of severe droughts in NA, namely in X-XIII centuries. The most severe one lasted since 1276 to 1299. Wikipedia says about diminishment of Ojibwe population for 98% due to drought of 1st century. May be, this refers to XIII century. In this case there is one more bottleneck.
    Last edited by SVR; 06-14-2014 at 11:17 AM.

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