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Thread: Another R1b distribution problem.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    You have to remember that many of these posters are not from Canada.It is perhaps hard for them to grasp the possibility that not every R1b found among the groups you mention is from a wandering trader, although it is certainly possible. What is surprising is the amount of testing that has been done on native peoples of Canada including the groups you mention. You would think they would be of great interest around this region


    The recent report from http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0071390 however did not show any R1b.
    That recent report seems to only mention C and Q and focus on !, but I didn't really see a discussion about R1b - did I miss something? If an assumption was made that R1b wasn't really relevant because it "must be" a result of recent European admixture, that isn't actually proof, IMO.

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    This paper on ancient DNA may be of interest, though looking at mtDNA: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0066948

    Cui et al., Ancient DNA Analysis of Mid-Holocene Individuals from the Northwest Coast of North America Reveals Different Evolutionary Paths for Mitogenomes, PLOS ONE, 2013.

    To gain a better understanding of North American population history, complete mitochondrial genomes (mitogenomes) were generated from four ancient and three living individuals of the northern Northwest Coast of North America, specifically the north coast of British Columbia, Canada, current home to the indigenous Tsimshian, Haida, and Nisga’a. The mitogenomes of all individuals were previously unknown and assigned to new sub-haplogroup designations D4h3a7, A2ag and A2ah. The analysis of mitogenomes allows for more detailed analyses of presumed ancestor–descendant relationships than sequencing only the HVSI region of the mitochondrial genome, a more traditional approach in local population studies. The results of this study provide contrasting examples of the evolution of Native American mitogenomes. Those belonging to sub-haplogroups A2ag and A2ah exhibit temporal continuity in this region for 5000 years up until the present day. Of possible associative significance is that archaeologically identified house structures in this region maintain similar characteristics for this same period of time, demonstrating cultural continuity in residence patterns. The individual dated to 6000 years before present (BP) exhibited a mitogenome belonging to sub-haplogroup D4h3a. This sub-haplogroup was earlier identified in the same general area at 10300 years BP on Prince of Wales Island, Alaska, and may have gone extinct, as it has not been observed in any living individuals of the Northwest Coast. The presented case studies demonstrate the different evolutionary paths of mitogenomes over time on the Northwest Coast.

    The majority of studies investigating mitochondrial genomes (mitogenomes), high-resolution Y-chromosomes, and genome-wide autosomal data of Native Americas aim to reconstruct the evolutionary history and infer past demographic events of these populations (recently reviewed by Kemp BM, Schurr TG (2010) Ancient and Modern Genetic Variation in the Americas. In: Auerbach B, editor. Human Variation in the Americas: The Integration of Archaeology and Biological Anthropology. Carbondale, IL: Southern Illinois University. 12–50.). The geographical distributions and frequencies of DNA variants exhibited by contemporary populations in the Americas are usually explained as the result of independent population migrations or significant regional demographic events (such as population bottlenecks, expansions, admixture, population structure) or a combination of these circumstances. However, a relatively high percentage of Y-chromosomes of Native Americans can be traced back to a European origin as a result of admixture following European contact. Moreover, genome-wide autosomal data of Native Americans usually exhibit significant amounts of European ancestry. In addition to non-indigenous admixture, European colonization complicates the genomic analyses of living populations because large-scale population loss, movements and amalgamations of indigenous peoples occurred after European contact, making it difficult to render an understanding of pre-European contact population dynamics.
    Last edited by Jean M; 09-10-2013 at 06:38 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Probably everyone here is aware of the R1b distribution problem in northern Europe. It generally gets higher as one approaches the Atlantic, and is highest in Ireland, Britain and the Basques country, so at one time it was assumed that R1b was the Y haplotype for the original Atlantic population. Recent strides in understanding dna changed that thinking, since it is now believed that R1b is only about 4500 years old and likely originated closer to the Black Sea than the Atlantic, so the distribution seems strange unless one assumes massive replacement of Y lineages in the Bronze Age. But there's another R1b distribution problem on the other side of the North Atlantic. Surveys of Amerindian Y dna do their best to screen out European dna from the post contact period (an admittedly difficult problem) but some tribes in the high north and in north eastern North America have very high levels of R1b. The reaction of the scientific community so far seems to be "It must be post contact European dna and the result of a founder affect, so let's not look at the problem too closely." But that doesn't really work, since the R1b levels are highest among the Dene in the high north and among the Algonquin speaking people in north eastern North America, declining as one moves south and west. And R1b is totally absent from the figures for South America, except for one part of Brazil. But South America has had a lot of racial mixing between indigenous people and people from Iberia, where R1b is common, so the attempts to screen out post contact European ancestry must have been successful in South America, except for the more remote parts of Brazil. And some of the North American tribes that have high rates of R1b have had later contact and less intermixing with people of European ancestry than other tribes with a lower rate of R1b. For example, the Ojibwe, who live north of the Great Lakes, have 79% R1b (and 25% mitrochondrial X2) and they didn't have much contact with white folks until about 1750. Whereas the Algonquin, who had much earlier contact with Europeans and who intermarried much more with Europeans than the Ojibwe have, show only 38% R1b. And in the far north, some of the Dene tribes who didn't have much contact with white folks until the 19th century show high rates of R1b, with the Chipewyan at 62%, for example. And there isn't much evidence of other "European" Y haplotypes, so one would have to assuming that attempts to screen out European ancestry were largely successful except in the case of R1b.

    It should be fairly easy to find out whether R1b was here before the colonial age by testing old bones. Except that Native North Americans aren't going to let that happen. Another approach would be to look at what subclades are involved in order to see whether it does look like modern European R1b or whether R1b could have evolved independently in North America, from an old strain of R. That seems unlikely, but more likely than any other scenario I could come up with once I decided that the quick explanation of "post contact European ancestry and founder affect" doesn't really work. I'd like to see the issue examined, since the longer science ignores the issue, the longer the Storm Front types and the Edgar Cayce fans have to create their own explanation for why R1b is a common Y among Native North Americans in the high Arctic and in north eastern North America.
    I see this suggested a lot and I'm a little tired of hearing about a "distribution problem" with R1b. It's no more of a "problem" than I1 peaking in Finns, or R1a1 peaking in some Turkic population in Russia someplace.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    This paper on ancient DNA may be of interest, though looking at mtDNA: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0066948

    Cui et al., Ancient DNA Analysis of Mid-Holocene Individuals from the Northwest Coast of North America Reveals Different Evolutionary Paths for Mitogenomes, PLOS ONE, 2013.
    Interesting, but I'd need to know whether that statement about a relatively high percentage of Y-chromosomes of Native Americans being traceable back to admixture following European contact is based on anything other than the assumption that if it's R1b it must be from Europe. I'm not denying that Native North Americans have a high degree of European admixture. I'm just wondering why there are high levels of R1b, in some cases extremely high levels, and no other "European" haplotypes present in any significant quantity (with the possible exception of the results for a few tribal groups showing a high level of "other"). I'm making an assumption that anyone trying to figure out Y haplotypes for Native North Americans attempted to screen out the European admixture, so I would have expected a much smaller level of "European" Y haplotypes present, with R1b being dominant but not the only "European" Y haplotype.

    There's also a problem with the distribution in the sense that the high levels of R1b aren't always where I'd have expected it if it was from post-Columbian Europeans. For example, the Sioux show a higher level of R1b than the Cherokee, even though the Cherokee are known to have absorbed a lot of European ancestry as compared to the Sioux, who tried to keep white folks out of their territory in order to protect their way of life (although they did admittedly do some trading with the French). The approach of (mainly) separatism only ended after the Sioux suffered several military defeats and were forced on to reservations in the 19th century. And since the Sioux were a very populous group, it would have taken a lot more Europeans to water down their bloodlines than would have been the case with some other groups.
    Last edited by Curious; 09-10-2013 at 07:53 PM.

  5. #25
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    This reminded me of an article I read a while ago, claiming that a trade-link between the people around Lake Superior and the Minoans & Myceaneans existed around 1st-2nd millenium BC.
    Personally I am not convinced , because if it had indeed existed "and continued until the Hellenistic times" as the author suggests, then I am sure it would have been mentioned more than once by the ancient writers and historians.

    http://canada.greekreporter.com/2012...fore-columbus/

    "Dr. Tsikritsis states that, “even before the time of Christopher Columbus, there was a communication which began during the Minoan era and continued until the Hellenistic times. The purpose of these travels during the Bronze Age was related to trade and the transportation of pure copper from Lake Superior of Canada.” - See more at: http://canada.greekreporter.com/2012/04/21/researcher-claims-ancient-greeks-made-it-to-america-before-columbus/#sthash.EjKKxxm7.dpuf"

    I also remember another article claiming that the Phoenicians also made that journey before C.Columbus

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-M...rs-51351.shtml

  6. #26
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    @ Kostop - We know that Vikings made the journey before Columbus. But Phoenicians and Myceneans? Just idle speculation about what could have happened, plus interpretations of the legend of Atlantis (of which there are a multitude).

    Interesting idea here about the result of Viking interaction with the tragic Beothuk people of Newfoundland: Descendants of Newfoundland’s “extinct” Beothuk live on in Iceland: http://blogs.canoe.ca/parker/news/de...on-in-iceland/
    Last edited by Jean M; 09-11-2013 at 02:00 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    so I would have expected a much smaller level of "European" Y haplotypes present, with R1b being dominant but not the only "European" Y haplotype.
    R1b is not the only Eurasian haplogroup present in Native Americans.

    You seem to have got that impression from a Wikipedia map which in fact shows R1 in Native Americans. As I mentioned above, the very limited study Ripan Singh Malhi et al. 2008 only tested to R-M173. In other words R*. Or to make matters absolutely clear, it did not distinguish between R1b and R1a.

    Matthew Dulik et al 2012 found both R1a1a1 and R1b1a2, plus E1b1b1, I1, J1c3, J2a, J2b and N1c1
    .
    Last edited by Jean M; 09-11-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious
    Another approach would be to look at what subclades are involved in order to see whether it does look like modern European R1b or whether R1b could have evolved independently in North America, from an old strain of R.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww
    Yes, and that should be easy enough to determine. If we just find L11+ types in Native American tribes, at least to the north, that would be hard to place as an ancient wandering. Any significant findings of M343*, L389*, M269*, M73 would be very telling and quite interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    That's the problem - I don't know. If that information was available, someone like yourself could no doubt tell us very quickly whether there is or is not an interesting issue to look at further.
    I don't have any long haplotype information from any Amerindian studies. As an alternative checkpoint (not a proof point), I looked for outlier R1b types in the two Amerindian projects I could find which were North American oriented. I pulled down all of the 67 STR R1b haplotypes so I could see how they matches with existing L11 files I have. I found 67 R1b predicted/tested haplotypes with 67 STRs.

    67 total
    28 L21 matching or tested
    14 U106 matching or tested
    13 P312xL21 matching or tested
    12 unable to assign to an R1b-L11 cluster (closest GDs to known P312 people were in the 10-14 range at 67)

    The remaining 12 all were predicted by FTDNA as R1b1a2 (M269) which is their normal depth of prediction for L11 or ht35 types. Of these 12,
    10 of 12 were 393=13
    10 of 12 were 393=24
    9 of 12 were 19=14
    10 of 12 were 385=11,14
    This is all pretty WAMHish. I didn't see any that looked like ht35 possibilities let alone M73 or something in the very early branching of R1b.

    If there was some R1b types in North America before the European exploration period I would have thought we'd see some outliers by now. I don't see any in these projects... none.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    ... an analysis of the varieties of R1b would be crucial. If it were all of an early form, one would draw an entirely different conclusion than if it was a sprinkling of various European R1b subclades. The former would suggest an earlier input, while the latter would suggest that it in fact comes from European settlers in the modern era...
    Still, good news... I found two more good L513 suspects for my primary paternal haplogroup, including one from my cluster.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-11-2013 at 08:04 PM.

  9. #29
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    Well that certainly seems to settle it. If you had found R* it would have been a different story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I don't have any long haplotype information from any Amerindian studies. As an alternative checkpoint (not a proof point), I looked for outlier R1b types in the two Amerindian projects I could find which were North American oriented. I pulled down all of the 67 STR R1b haplotypes so I could see how they matches with existing L11 files I have. I found 67 of the 67 STR R1b haplotypes.

    67 total
    28 L21 matching or tested
    14 U106 matching or tested
    13 P312xL21 matching or tested
    12 couldn't assign to an R1b-L11 cluster (closest GDs were to known P312 people were generally in the 10-14 range at 67)

    The remaining 12 all were predicted by FTDNA as R1b1a2 (M269) which is their normal depth of prediction for L11 or ht35 types. Of these 12,
    10 of 12 were 393=13
    10 of 12 were 3393=24
    9 of 12 were 19=15
    10 of 12 were 385=11,14
    This is all pretty WAMHish. I didn't see any that looked like ht35 possibilities let alone M73 or something in the very early branching of R1b.

    If there was some pre-European exploration period R1b in North America I would have thought we'd see some outliers by now. I don't see any in these projects... none.

    Still, good news... I found two more good L513 suspects for my primary paternal haplogroup, including one from my cluster.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I don't have any long haplotype information from any Amerindian studies. As an alternative checkpoint (not a proof point), I looked for outlier R1b types in the two Amerindian projects I could find which were North American oriented. I pulled down all of the 67 STR R1b haplotypes so I could see how they matches with existing L11 files I have. I found 67 of the 67 STR R1b haplotypes.

    67 total
    28 L21 matching or tested
    14 U106 matching or tested
    13 P312xL21 matching or tested
    12 unable to assign to an R1b-L11 cluster (closest GDs to known P312 people were in the 10-14 range at 67)

    The remaining 12 all were predicted by FTDNA as R1b1a2 (M269) which is their normal depth of prediction for L11 or ht35 types. Of these 12,
    10 of 12 were 393=13
    10 of 12 were 3393=24
    9 of 12 were 19=15
    10 of 12 were 385=11,14
    This is all pretty WAMHish. I didn't see any that looked like ht35 possibilities let alone M73 or something in the very early branching of R1b.

    If there was some pre-European exploration period R1b in North America I would have thought we'd see some outliers by now. I don't see any in these projects... none.

    Still, good news... I found two more good L513 suspects for my primary paternal haplogroup, including one from my cluster.
    Okay, that was the kind of information I was looking for but don't have the scientific background necessary to figure out. I still think some of the results are weird, but that could be down to sampling methods.

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