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Thread: Another R1b distribution problem.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    .... the longer the Storm Front types and the Edgar Cayce fans have to create their own explanation ...
    I've never followed the Storm Front or Edgard Cayce fans so I don't know what it is they are espousing, however, I've got a bad feeling bringing up groups like that is problematic for rational discussion.

    As a moderator, please, let us leave any associations with those folks checked out at the door of our conversations. I'm okay if anyone wants to fight battles with other bloggers or forums but please do it on those other forums.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I've never followed the Storm Front or Edgard Cayce fans so I don't know what it is they are espousing, however, I've got a bad feeling bringing up groups like that is problematic for rational discussion.

    As a moderator, please, let us leave any associations with those folks checked out at the door of our conversations. I'm okay if anyone wants to fight battles with other bloggers or forums but please do it on those other forums.
    My point was that when science fails to address a contentious issue, that leaves the field open to people whose approach many of us find questionable, without any scientific rebuttal being available. The particular names were chosen at random. However, I will leave names out of it from now on.
    Last edited by Curious; 09-10-2013 at 04:17 PM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Results such as 79%, 62%, etc. is more than a sprinkling. And, as I said, some of the tribes with the highest percentage of reported R1b had later contact and less recorded intermarriage with Europeans. For example, I could accept the idea that European Y dna and a founder affect was responsible for the 38% R1b among the Algonquins of Quebec, who had considerable contact with Europeans from at least as early as 1600 and who subsequently intermixed considerably with Quebec settlers. Unrecorded European ancestry could account for the results in that case (if it is European R1b). However, there's much more difficult to explain a higher rate of R1b (79%) for the Ojibwe, who were contacted later and who have been traditionally less interested in intermixing and less likely to give high status to those of mixed race.
    ...
    What was the sample size and from what locations were these frequencies found in Ojibwe descendants? These people may be widely dispersed by now so it might be important to know who is from where.

    How do you know what contacts Ojibwe had with Europeans? Perhaps I'm thinking of a different people, but weren't they from the area around Lake Superior? They must traveled the lake and we know French traders were there since the mid 1600s.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-10-2013 at 04:26 PM.

  4. #14
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    Well, it safe to start with an open mind even if some people have idealogical motives. The obvious first question is what clades of R1b?

    It does seem extremely unlikely though given that R1b did not hit the Atlantic until P312 times and the sail only probably arrived in the Atlantic c. 1000BC as far as I know.

    I presume R1b didnt reach the far east until M73 reached there. Its only 7000 years old apparently and in all likelihood wouldnt have reached the fringes of China until the Bronze Age.

    So, its not looking good for any early sort of R1b presence in the Americas from either a very unlikely Atlantic route of from the east.

    I suppose you could have some R1b* heading east just after it came into existence at the end of the LGM but I dont know of any evidence of that.

    Discussion is pointless unless someone can look at native American R1b and suggest the clades.

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    If, as seems overwhelmingly likely, this is down to modern Europeans in the Americas, it is still interesting just how well R1b had done in a short time.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Results such as 79%, 62%, etc. is more than a sprinkling. And, as I said, some of the tribes with the highest percentage of reported R1b had later contact and less recorded intermarriage with Europeans. For example, I could accept the idea that European Y dna and a founder affect was responsible for the 38% R1b among the Algonquins of Quebec, who had considerable contact with Europeans from at least as early as 1600 and who subsequently intermixed considerably with Quebec settlers. Unrecorded European ancestry could account for the results in that case (if it is European R1b). However, there's much more difficult to explain a higher rate of R1b (79%) for the Ojibwe, who were contacted later and who have been traditionally less interested in intermixing and less likely to give high status to those of mixed race. And the information I found didn't indicate significant rates of other "European" Y haplotypes, with the remaining Y haplotypes being mainly C and Q and a high rate of "other" for only a couple of tribes. I wish I knew the details of "other".

    Part of the problem is that I can't seem to find access to the actual studies, so don't know anything about the subclades, etc. And I can no longer find the page that I was initially looking at, which mentioned sample sizes, etc. Wikipedia seems to have slightly different data that may have come from different studies - for example, it doesn't mention the Ojibwe but refers to two groups of Chippewa in eastern North America, one of which records the 79% R1b rate - I assume that should actually be Ojibwe, but it's not clear. (The Algonquin, Chippewa and Ojibwe are all part of the larger Algonquin language group.)
    It all depends on the sample, but as someone who has a sibling who has moved into NW Ontario with her husband, I am pretty certain there is significant European admixture in the Ojibwe. Many people in that area are part 'Native', or alternatively part 'European', depending how you look at it.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Probably everyone here is aware of the R1b distribution problem in northern Europe. ..
    You have to remember that many of these posters are not from Canada.It is perhaps hard for them to grasp the possibility that not every R1b found among the groups you mention is from a wandering trader, although it is certainly possible. What is surprising is the amount of testing that has been done on native peoples of Canada including the groups you mention. You would think they would be of great interest around this region


    The recent report from http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0071390 however did not show any R1b.
    Last edited by Silesian; 09-10-2013 at 05:07 PM.
    R1b-Z2110 +TMRCA 3800+/-B.C>R1b-Y-5592 + TMRCA 2800+/-B.C.> CTS-9219 + TMRCA 2800+/-B.C. >R-Y5587 + TMRCA 2800+/-B.C.>BY593 + TMRCA 417+/-A.D.>R-Y14306 ? TMRCA 717+/-A.D.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    ...
    I suppose you could have some R1b* heading east just after it came into existence at the end of the LGM but I dont know of any evidence of that.

    Discussion is pointless unless someone can look at native American R1b and suggest the clades.
    Yes, and that should be easy enough to determine. If we just find L11+ types in Native American tribes, at least to the north, that would be hard to place as an ancient wandering. Any significant findings of M343*, L389*, M269*, M73 would be very telling and quite interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    What was the sample size and from what locations were these frequencies found in Ojibwe descendants? These people may be widely dispersed by now so it might be important to know who is from where.

    How do you know what contacts Ojibwe had with Europeans? Perhaps I'm thinking of a different people, but weren't they from the area around Lake Superior? They must traveled the lake and we know French traders were there since the mid 1600s.
    I don't know the sample size, which is one of the problems with making any definite assumptions. However, I do know a fair bit about Canadian history. The Ojibwe were in the Lake Superior region, and did have some contact with passing fur traders from about 1650 on, but it appears unlikely that, until the 19th century, they would have had as much opportunity for racial mixing as the Algonquins of Quebec who were living among permanent white settlers from a very early date, so I just find it curious that the Ojibwe have a much higher rate of R1b than the Algonquins. I would have expected a much higher rate of no longer traceable European admixture among the Algonquins. However, without access to the data, I can't rule out the possibility that the apparent anomaly was created by the sampling methods.
    Last edited by Curious; 09-10-2013 at 06:27 PM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Yes, and that should be easy enough to determine. If we just find L11+ types in Native American tribes, at least to the north, that would be hard to place as an ancient wandering. Any significant findings of M343*, L389*, M269*, M73 would be very telling and quite interesting.
    That's the problem - I don't know. If that information was available, someone like yourself could no doubt tell us very quickly whether there is or is not an interesting issue to look at further.

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