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Thread: Another R1b distribution problem.

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    Another R1b distribution problem.

    Probably everyone here is aware of the R1b distribution problem in northern Europe. It generally gets higher as one approaches the Atlantic, and is highest in Ireland, Britain and the Basques country, so at one time it was assumed that R1b was the Y haplotype for the original Atlantic population. Recent strides in understanding dna changed that thinking, since it is now believed that R1b is only about 4500 years old and likely originated closer to the Black Sea than the Atlantic, so the distribution seems strange unless one assumes massive replacement of Y lineages in the Bronze Age. But there's another R1b distribution problem on the other side of the North Atlantic. Surveys of Amerindian Y dna do their best to screen out European dna from the post contact period (an admittedly difficult problem) but some tribes in the high north and in north eastern North America have very high levels of R1b. The reaction of the scientific community so far seems to be "It must be post contact European dna and the result of a founder affect, so let's not look at the problem too closely." But that doesn't really work, since the R1b levels are highest among the Dene in the high north and among the Algonquin speaking people in north eastern North America, declining as one moves south and west. And R1b is totally absent from the figures for South America, except for one part of Brazil. But South America has had a lot of racial mixing between indigenous people and people from Iberia, where R1b is common, so the attempts to screen out post contact European ancestry must have been successful in South America, except for the more remote parts of Brazil. And some of the North American tribes that have high rates of R1b have had later contact and less intermixing with people of European ancestry than other tribes with a lower rate of R1b. For example, the Ojibwe, who live north of the Great Lakes, have 79% R1b (and 25% mitrochondrial X2) and they didn't have much contact with white folks until about 1750. Whereas the Algonquin, who had much earlier contact with Europeans and who intermarried much more with Europeans than the Ojibwe have, show only 38% R1b. And in the far north, some of the Dene tribes who didn't have much contact with white folks until the 19th century show high rates of R1b, with the Chipewyan at 62%, for example. And there isn't much evidence of other "European" Y haplotypes, so one would have to assuming that attempts to screen out European ancestry were largely successful except in the case of R1b.

    It should be fairly easy to find out whether R1b was here before the colonial age by testing old bones. Except that Native North Americans aren't going to let that happen. Another approach would be to look at what subclades are involved in order to see whether it does look like modern European R1b or whether R1b could have evolved independently in North America, from an old strain of R. That seems unlikely, but more likely than any other scenario I could come up with once I decided that the quick explanation of "post contact European ancestry and founder affect" doesn't really work. I'd like to see the issue examined, since the longer science ignores the issue, the longer the Storm Front types and the Edgar Cayce fans have to create their own explanation for why R1b is a common Y among Native North Americans in the high Arctic and in north eastern North America.
    Last edited by Curious; 09-09-2013 at 05:50 PM.

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    Lucky Voyageurs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Lucky Voyageurs?
    I don't think so. As I explained, the tribes with the highest R1B rates are not generally the ones that have had the most or earliest mixing with people of European descent, so they're not the best candidates for having unrecognized European ancestry, or for having time to experience a founder affect. Plus, a lot of North American tribes didn't grant high status to people of mixed ancestry, so such an explanation seems unlikely to me. Also, why only R1b? At one point, I looked at the geographic situation and had a notion of paleolithic Europeans crossing the Atlantic ice during the last glacial maximum and mixing with the folks who were already in North America at that time, and I find that theory has in fact been taken up by some (not on this forum). However, the current scientific view as to the actual age of R1b would seem to make that impossible. So it's a puzzle to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    I don't think so. As I explained, the tribes with the highest R1B rates are not generally the ones that have had the most or earliest mixing with people of European descent, so they're not the best candidates for having unrecognized European ancestry, or for having time to experience a founder affect. Plus, a lot of North American tribes didn't grant high status to people of mixed ancestry, so such an explanation seems unlikely to me. Also, why only R1b? At one point, I looked at the geographic situation and had a notion of paleolithic Europeans crossing the Atlantic ice during the last glacial maximum and mixing with the folks who were already in North America at that time, and I find that theory has in fact been taken up by some (not on this forum). However, the current scientific view as to the actual age of R1b would seem to make that impossible. So it's a puzzle to me.
    Can you point us to these studies?
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Raetian bronze votive, Fritzens-Sanzeno Culture VI-V c. BC, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, Italy

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    R1b in general or R1b-M269?

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    If this is correct, an analysis of the varieties of R1b would be crucial. If it were all of an early form, one would draw an entirely different conclusion than if it was a sprinkling of various European R1b subclades. The former would suggest an earlier input, while the latter would suggest that it in fact comes from European settlers in the modern era. Or, if it turned out to contain L238, a genetic legacy of the Vikings would be a likely explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Can you point us to these studies?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneti...#Haplogroup_R1

    The relevant study: http://public.wsu.edu/~bmkemp/public...et_al_2008.pdf
    Ripan Singh Malhi et al., Distribution of Y Chromosomes Among Native North Americans: A Study of Athapaskan Population History, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 137, Issue 4, pages 412–424, December 2008

    This study in fact only tested to R-M173. Abstract:

    In this study, 231 Y chromosomes from 12 populations were typed for four diagnostic single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) to determine haplogroup membership and 43 Y chromosomes from three of these populations were typed for eight short tandem repeats (STRs) to determine haplotypes. These data were combined with previously published data, amounting to 724 Y chromosomes from 26 populations in North America, and analyzed to investigate the geographic distribution of Y chromosomes among native North Americans and to test the Southern Athapaskan migration hypothesis. The results suggest that European admixture has significantly altered the distribution of Y chromosomes in North America and because of this caution should be taken when inferring prehistoric population events in North America using Y chromosome data alone. However, consistent with studies of other genetic systems, we are still able to identify close relationships among Y chromosomes in Athapaskans from the Subarctic and the Southwest, suggesting that a small number of proto-Apachean migrants from the Subarctic founded the Southwest Athapaskan populations.
    Bear in mind that a single European trapper or logger mixing with a small native band in a thinly-populated area could have a comparatively large effect in percentage terms. By contrast Native Americans who were farmers and therefore more populous might need much more European introgression to have the same effect. Also bear in mind that the map on Wikipedia simply gives the results of existing studies when it was drawn up, not the results of some global study of even distribution.
    Last edited by Jean M; 09-10-2013 at 12:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    If this is correct, an analysis of the varieties of R1b would be crucial. If it were all of an early form, one would draw an entirely different conclusion than if it was a sprinkling of various European R1b subclades. The former would suggest an earlier input, while the latter would suggest that it in fact comes from European settlers in the modern era. Or, if it turned out to contain L238, a genetic legacy of the Vikings would be a likely explanation.
    Results such as 79%, 62%, etc. is more than a sprinkling. And, as I said, some of the tribes with the highest percentage of reported R1b had later contact and less recorded intermarriage with Europeans. For example, I could accept the idea that European Y dna and a founder affect was responsible for the 38% R1b among the Algonquins of Quebec, who had considerable contact with Europeans from at least as early as 1600 and who subsequently intermixed considerably with Quebec settlers. Unrecorded European ancestry could account for the results in that case (if it is European R1b). However, there's much more difficult to explain a higher rate of R1b (79%) for the Ojibwe, who were contacted later and who have been traditionally less interested in intermixing and less likely to give high status to those of mixed race. And the information I found didn't indicate significant rates of other "European" Y haplotypes, with the remaining Y haplotypes being mainly C and Q and a high rate of "other" for only a couple of tribes. I wish I knew the details of "other".

    Part of the problem is that I can't seem to find access to the actual studies, so don't know anything about the subclades, etc. And I can no longer find the page that I was initially looking at, which mentioned sample sizes, etc. Wikipedia seems to have slightly different data that may have come from different studies - for example, it doesn't mention the Ojibwe but refers to two groups of Chippewa in eastern North America, one of which records the 79% R1b rate - I assume that should actually be Ojibwe, but it's not clear. (The Algonquin, Chippewa and Ojibwe are all part of the larger Algonquin language group.)
    Last edited by Curious; 09-10-2013 at 12:56 PM.

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    This could be what you are looking for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...f_the_Americas

    A more recent study is http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...60109.full.pdf

    Matthew Dulik et al., Y-chromosome analysis reveals genetic divergence and new founding native lineages in Athapaskan- and Eskimoan-speaking populations, PNAS (2012), which at least distinguished between R1a and R1b!
    Last edited by Jean M; 09-10-2013 at 01:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    This could be what you are looking for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...f_the_Americas
    It's what I can find currently that gives an outline of the issue. I was looking at more detailed information initially, I think from a University of Texas website, but it doesn't seem to be available anymore.

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