Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 22

Thread: Is the Globular Amphora Culture the clue to R1b-L51 into Central Europe?

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    199
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Ethnicity
    more "celtic"
    Nationality
    french (for the State)
    Y-DNA
    Y-R1b-L21/S145 *conf
    mtDNA
    H3c

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Gimbutas thought GAC was a mix of Kurgan elites and Old Europeans, but it doesn't sound like this paper has found those elites, if they in fact existed. It sounds like they're saying there were cultural influences from the steppe in GAC but that genetically GAC people were like the old Neolithic farmers. That's basically what the Mathieson et al paper showed, as well. All the GAC men were I2a, as I recall, and there was no steppe dna in GAC.

    Reminds me of the Remedello results: a culture that looks like it had been kurganized, but without steppe dna or any R1b or R1a.

    I don't think we're going to find L51 in GAC. I think it will show up in Yamnaya or in Corded Ware or both.

    The farmer component in Bell Beaker is closest to a combination of GAC and TRB because Bell Beaker moved through GAC and TRB territory and acquired wives from people descended from those peoples.
    I would have said the same thing.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to moesan For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (11-15-2017)

  3. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,467
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1b
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Right, but we don't understand the formation of NW/E Bell Beaker. It may have been gradual, similar to the Mycaenean take-over of Minoan civilization to form the new and true Greek society.

    our R1b-L23>L51>L151 lineage is a needle in a haystack anyway

    We see the eastern geographies of GAC had a different physical type, indicating some difference in people.

    I think there is great emphasis on the sun in the East Bell Beakers. Looks like a commonality with the GAC.

    GAC is adjacent to the Carpathian Basin also so the Danubian Yamnaya are not out of the question either.
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2
    But I guess you are talking about or exploring the possibility of an L51 Corded Ware group mixing with GAC and/or TRB, with the result being Bell Beaker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Right, although GAC is adjacent to the Carpathian Basin also so the Danubian Yamnaya are not out of the question either.
    Some of Alan's thinking is rubbing off on me but here is one a speculative scenario.

    The R1b-L23>L51>L151 pre-U106 pre-P312 lineages are a small but farflung group that led a trade and scouting network. Perhaps they came from early Corded Ware excursions into Central Europe but let's go with them as scouts for the Danubian Yamnaya...

    Corded Wares people filled with R1a lineages came from the east and northeast into GAC lands, putting severe pressure on them. This motivates the GAC people to ally with the Yamnaya traders/scouts from the Danube Valley.

    L51 basal lineages from the Danubian Yamnaya helped influence and change the GAC culture, but they were an elite group. They were not an all out group of colonizers and settlers. The alliance grows but eventually succumbs to CW and R1a incursions into Central Europe. The GAC is now just a scattered remnant, but somewhere a long their southern and eastern edge, they held together and reformed and merged with people from the headquarters for the Danubian Yamnaya scouts and traders. This would be the birth of the East/Northwest Bell Beakers.

    The E/NW Bell Beakers was a new society with aggressive, expansionist and apparently polygamous ways. L151 arose as the new society was born. U106 branched off immediately before or as this was happening. I don't know if they fall into Unetice or were just a flavor of CW or part of an early merge with some CW peoples.

    The E/NW Bell Beaker P312 led cultures smashed Central Europe leaving some people to see something that was a reflux but it was never a reflux originating in Southwest of Europe. Its predecessor was just a far flung group gathering ideas to relaunch through out Central, Northwestern, Southwestern Europe and the Alpine Region. I think their base was the Danube Valley near the Alps, probably due north of Italy or slightly northeast along the Middle Danube.

    Finding ancient L23* pre-L51, L51*, L151* basal lineages may be near impossible because they were never a large, concentrated colony in the first place.

    BTW... I may have described the French and Indian War against the British, but in this case the French (or the mixed group i.e. Cajuns) won.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 11-14-2017 at 11:49 PM.

  4. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    199
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Ethnicity
    more "celtic"
    Nationality
    french (for the State)
    Y-DNA
    Y-R1b-L21/S145 *conf
    mtDNA
    H3c

    BB had absorbed more neolithik DNA fromCentral Europe than did CWC as a whole so it could witness longer contacts and a gradual elaboration as said by Mikewww, and rather a relatively more southern or say central position as opposed to first CWC, in Western Europe - concerning Y haplos I think the cut off between CWC and BB was neat enough, so almost no R1b among CWC, or very few.
    I could suppose first L51+recent L11 were somewhere between Poland, Slovakia and N-W Ukraina, and for the most of them were pushed southwards by coming CWC - maybe some others stayed in a corner not too far from the Baltic, in a rather Y-I1 environment, future ancestors of U106??? Unneasy to say, because it seems that at those times among previously nomadic tribes, clans didn't intergrate so easily others and in relatively little territories distinct lignages could live almost side by side -

    aside this, GAC was maybe not homogenous on it all territory?

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to moesan For This Useful Post:

     Mikewww (11-14-2017)

  6. #14
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    . . .


    I think there is great emphasis on the sun in the East Bell Beakers. Looks like a commonality with the GAC.

    . . .
    The sun and solar motifs were a steppe thing that occurred in Yamnaya and in earlier steppe cultures like Mikhailovka I. It is not likely BB acquired that from GAC.
    Last edited by rms2; 11-15-2017 at 01:45 AM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  7. #15
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    If Gimbutas is right, and BB was the product of the mixing of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian basin, then BB's ancestors and BB itself came up the Danube Valley and thus through a region more heavily populated with Neolithic farmers than CW did, thus the greater Neolithic farmer admixture in BB than in CW.

    If BB was an offshoot of CW, then one must recall that BB is slightly younger than CW and had more time to mix with Old European farmer populations, thus diluting its steppe ancestry a little more than CW did. In addition, if BB came from CW, it was from the western vanguard of CW, which abutted Old European farmers and would have been in a better position to mix with them.

    Time will tell on GAC, but thus far it doesn't have any R1 or steppe dna. If it had been mixing with steppe peoples, one would expect to see at least a little steppe dna.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  8. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    258
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1a-CTS11962>L1029
    mtDNA
    H80

    European Union Germany Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    If Gimbutas is right, and BB was the product of the mixing of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian basin, then BB's ancestors and BB itself came up the Danube Valley and thus through a region more heavily populated with Neolithic farmers than CW did, thus the greater Neolithic farmer admixture in BB than in CW.

    If BB was an offshoot of CW, then one must recall that BB is slightly younger than CW and had more time to mix with Old European farmer populations, thus diluting its steppe ancestry a little more than CW did. In addition, if BB came from CW, it was from the western vanguard of CW, which abutted Old European farmers and would have been in a better position to mix with them.

    Time will tell on GAC, but thus far it doesn't have any R1 or steppe dna. If it had been mixing with steppe peoples, one would expect to see at least a little steppe dna.
    in mathieson et al the farmer admix was higher on X-chr than by autosome analysis in BB_Germany hence it came via the maternal side, with total higher farmer than CW and lower yamnaya than CW and vucedol itself X values being completely AN(farmer) so i guess one can construct something either way yet olalde et al also rejected central farmers (germany/hungary) as a source of farmer admix in favor of the northern TRB/GAC in beakers;
    Geno2.0NextGeneration 51%SouthernEurope 19%Western&CentralEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EasternEurope 4%GreatBritain&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%West&CentralEurope 40%SoutheastEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WestMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NorthwestEuropean 27%SouthEuropean 13%MediterraneanIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%North&WestEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 49%Northern&CentralEurope 36%SouthwesternEurope 15%EasternMediterranean

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alexfritz For This Useful Post:

     Mikewww (11-15-2017), rms2 (11-15-2017)

  10. #17
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    in mathieson et al the farmer admix was higher on X-chr than by autosome analysis in BB_Germany hence it came via the maternal side, with total higher farmer than CW and lower yamnaya than CW and vucedol itself X values being completely AN(farmer) so i guess one can construct something either way yet olalde et al also rejected central farmers (germany/hungary) as a source of farmer admix in favor of the northern TRB/GAC in beakers;
    Thanks for that. I must confess I only gave Mathieson a kind of cursory reading and spent much more time on Olalde et al, so I did not notice that X chromosome info you mentioned above, which strikes me as pretty significant.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     alexfritz (11-15-2017)

  12. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,467
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    R1b
    mtDNA
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by moesan View Post
    aside this, GAC was maybe not homogenous on it all territory?
    Absolutely, our ancient DNA surveys are horribly limited. Plus we can see with the Bell Beaker (Early West/Iberian versus East/NW continental) that there was not just one type of people in something that looks like a culture. It may be more of an horizon than a culture, as David Anthony explained about the Yamanaya.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The sun and solar motifs were a steppe thing that occurred in Yamnaya and in earlier steppe cultures like Mikhailovka I.
    This gets a little more specific than general sun motifs and also involves some human physical differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mallory
    the presence of amber "sun-discs". Finally, the physical type of the Globular Amphora population, at least those in the easternmost territories, has been seen to be similar to those of the steppe region.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endrodi
    The representation of the Sun in various forms (gold discs, incised Sun motives) can be observed on nearly the entire territory of the Bell Beaker culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    It is not likely BB acquired that from GAC.
    It may have been the other way around, but earlier. It may have been that GAC acquired this from the Danube Yamnaya scouts/traders.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    If Gimbutas is right, and BB was the product of the mixing of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian basin, then BB's ancestors and BB itself came up the Danube Valley and thus through a region more heavily populated with Neolithic farmers than CW did, thus the greater Neolithic farmer admixture in BB than in CW.
    I'm not saying this is much different in my speculative scenario than Gimbutas although Vucedol may have had less influence than Gimbutas thought, maybe very little.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Time will tell on GAC, but thus far it doesn't have any R1 or steppe dna. If it had been mixing with steppe peoples, one would expect to see at least a little steppe dna.
    If you look at the clues closely and do not assume that GAC is monolithic, we might consider that GAC was influenced by cultural practices from a steppes people on its eastern edges.

    Hence, on the eastern edge, there were physical differences in the people to be more steppes-like (per Mallory).

    Keep in mind the Mycenean influence over pre-Greek society. At first they moved in with a purely elitie/hegemonious relationship but over time something happened and eventually everyone spoke an IE language, proto-Greek, which came from the Myceneans.

    In this case, my speculation is that R1a came in with CW cultures and started to overtake the GAC cultures, which were Yamanaya influenced but had little people/steppe DNA. However, the CW incursions retreated or disappated.

    What caused the demise of the CW expansion was what others thought was a reflux starting from SW Europe. It was not. It was just a re-launch with a vengence of the new society, the E/NW Bell Beakers, which had a heavier does of steppe DNA since it came from the R1b-L51 pre-L151 headquarters.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 11-15-2017 at 04:07 AM.

  13. #19
    Gold Member Class
    Posts
    7,964
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA
    R1b-FGC36982
    mtDNA
    U5a2c3a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Absolutely, our ancient DNA surveys are horribly limited. Plus we can see with the Bell Beaker (Early West/Iberian versus East/NW continental) that there was not just one type of people in something that looks like a culture. It may be more of an horizon than a culture, as David Anthony explained about the Yamanaya.
    Well, thus far it looks like Bell Beaker had two kinds of people: 1) early Iberian Neolithic farmers of Mediterranean physical type who buried there dead in collective tombs with some BB pottery and who had no steppe dna or R1b L23, and 2) kurgan type non-Iberian Bell Beaker people who buried their dead steppe fashion in single graves covered by a round tumulus and who had plenty of steppe dna and R1b-L23.

    I'm not convinced we are really even talking about the same culture, let alone the same people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    This gets a little more specific than general sun motifs and also involves some human physical differences.
    Really? How specifically are the solar motifs in Bell Beaker and GAC alike and yet differ from the overall use of the same kinds of motifs in Yamnaya and earlier steppe cultures like Mikhailovka?

    I was aware that a few GAC skeletons look like steppe skeletons. Gimbutas mentions that in The Civilization of the Goddess. It was one of the reasons she felt GAC had a ruling steppe elite. She mentioned Olga Necrasova's work with GAC skeletons and said that most GAC people were physically like TRB people (i.e., Neolithic farmers) but that a few at the eastern end of GAC's range had more robust skeletons and were like steppe people.

    Some of the GAC samples in Mathieson et al were from Ukraine, however, and they did not differ essentially from the samples in Poland: I2a and no steppe dna.

    Maybe steppe dna and R1 will eventually turn up in GAC, but they haven't thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    It may have been the other way around, but earlier. It may have been that GAC acquired this from the Danube Yamnaya scouts/traders.
    That's probably right. GAC acquired its use of solar motifs from its steppe neighbors.

    Indo-Europeans worshiped the "Shining Father" (Dyaus Piter, cf. Jupiter and Deus Pater), i.e., the sun, hence the prevalence of solar motifs among them. IMHO, Bell Beaker came by theirs naturally, while GAC borrowed them via trade contacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm not saying this is much different in my speculative scenario than Gimbutas although Vucedol may have had less influence than Gimbutas thought, maybe very little.
    Gimbutas had some pretty good reasons for believing Bell Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol. I've listed them before. They can be found in her works, especially in The Civilization of the Goddess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    If you look at the clues closely and do not assume that GAC is monolithic, we might consider that GAC was influenced by cultural practices from a steppes people on its eastern edges.
    Nobody is assuming anything. I am aware of steppe influences in GAC, but this new paper seems to be saying they were cultural rather than genetic, and thus far we don't see any evidence of steppe dna or R1 in GAC.

    I think Bell Beaker, or whatever steppe people became Bell Beaker, took wives from among the GAC people or their descendants. Alexfritz already mentioned a few posts back the X chromosome evidence from Mathieson et al showing that most of the Neolithic farmer stuff in German BB came from the distaff side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Hence, on the eastern edge, there were physical differences in the people to be more steppes-like (per Mallory).
    Already noted above (also per Gimbutas, as I noted). As I said, Mathieson et al has samples from GAC's eastern range, but thus far no steppe dna or R1. Maybe the steppe skeletons in GAC really were few and far between, and the scientists just have not tested the right ones yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Keep in mind the Mycenean influence over pre-Greek society. At first they moved in with a purely elitie/hegemonious relationship but over time something happened and eventually everyone spoke an IE language, proto-Greek, which came from the Myceneans.
    No doubt that sort of thing was a relatively common occurrence. But right now all we really know about GAC is that its people were genetically like Old European Neolithic farmers. We can guess there might have been IE elites among them, but thus far those elites have not shown up in the ancient dna results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    In this case, my speculation is that R1a came in with CW cultures and started to overtake the GAC cultures, which were Yamanaya influenced but had little people/steppe DNA. However, the CW incursions retreated or disappated.

    What caused the demise of the CW expansion was what others thought was a reflux starting from SW Europe. It was not. It was just a re-launch with a vengence of the new society, the E/NW Bell Beakers, which had a heavier does of steppe DNA since it came from the R1b-L51 pre-L151 headquarters.
    Maybe things will change with more ancient dna evidence, but thus far I don't see any sign that a steppe people mingled with GAC and the result was Bell Beaker, not in the sense of the two cultures and peoples meeting, mixing and forming a new hybrid.

    It seems to me Bell Beaker males or males of whichever steppe culture became Bell Beaker took wives from among the Old Europeans they encountered as they moved here and there. In Central Europe a lot of the women were descendants of TRB and GAC people, so Bell Beaker acquired most of its farmer dna from them.

    Either way, we've got mixing going on, but you seem to be saying GAC + CW, or GAC + Yamnaya, = Bell Beaker. Am I wrong?

    I just think GAC as a culture had less to do with it than that.
    Last edited by rms2; 11-15-2017 at 12:29 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36982 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Mikewww (11-15-2017)

  15. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    199
    Sex
    Location
    Brittany
    Ethnicity
    more "celtic"
    Nationality
    french (for the State)
    Y-DNA
    Y-R1b-L21/S145 *conf
    mtDNA
    H3c

    It's at the mergins and not a too scientific approach, but, after having red a blog report of results from Mathieson concerning CWC and (northern) BB, which are :
    autosomes: CWC : 10,6% WHG // 20,2% AN(EEFlike) // 69,1% Yamna
    BB : 15,0% WHG // 37,0% AN // 48,0% Yamna
    chromoX CWC : 25,3% WHG // 25,5% AN // 49,2% Yamna
    BB : 14,9% WHG // 51,3% AN // 33,8% Yamna
    we can consider, roughly, that among the local pops which crossed with the Steppes newcomers (overwhelmingly through their females), the ones which took part in the CWC final result were less EEF oriented than the ones picked by BB - sure the %'s here are not to be taken too precisely concerning true ancestry, but the difference is clear enough and it could confirm the more southern route taken by BB - or that BB crossed more effectively with the "southern" pops they found on their route (lower speed of emigration, with halts?): Cucuteni-Tripolye here?

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to moesan For This Useful Post:

     Mikewww (11-15-2017), rms2 (11-15-2017)

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. J1a3 or Z1828 in Central Europe
    By Berengar in forum J1-M267
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 09-21-2017, 06:45 AM
  2. R1b in Central - Eastern Europe
    By Gravetto-Danubian in forum R1b General
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 04-13-2016, 06:25 AM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-11-2014, 04:37 AM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-04-2013, 02:41 AM
  5. Eastern, Southeastern, and Central Europe Archaeology and History News
    By History-of-Things in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-27-2013, 04:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •