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Thread: Is the Globular Amphora Culture the clue to R1b-L51 into Central Europe?

  1. #21
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    I don't think we are in much disagreement. It's more of a matter of proportions of people versus social influence only and the related nuances. I'm definitely not committed that R1b-L23>L51>L151 basal lineages were ever in GAC. It is just a proposal since we haven't found R1b-L51>L151 basal lineages in ancient DNA yet. We do see the L151>P312 lineages in East/NW Bell Beakers have GAC autosomal DNA in their mix and we see East/NW Bell Beakers showing up with a vengence in old GAC territories.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, thus far it looks like Bell Beaker had two kinds of people: 1) early Iberian Neolithic farmers of Mediterranean physical type who buried there dead in collective tombs with some BB pottery and who had no steppe dna or R1b L23, and 2) kurgan type non-Iberian Bell Beaker people who buried their dead steppe fashion in single graves covered by a round tumulus and who had plenty of steppe dna and R1b-L23.

    I'm not convinced we are really even talking about the same culture, let alone the same people.
    I agree 100%, in fact I think there may be more than two kinds of Bell Beaker people. I doubt if we really have a good survey of the Italic Bell Beakers. I've always said we should consider the Bell Beakers as an horizon rather than homogeneous culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Really? How specifically are the solar motifs in Bell Beaker and GAC alike and yet differ from the overall use of the same kinds of motifs in Yamnaya and earlier steppe cultures like Mikhailovka?
    I agree that Yamnaya, Mikhailovka, East/NW Bell Beaker and GAC could all have shared cultural practices related to the sun. I am not proposing this originated with GAC. We see that Heyd (?Harrison) felt the sun related practices were particularly important in East Bell Beakers, which would be in old GAC territories. I don't think he ever felt the CW culture's sun related practices were of the same type or emphasis. I don't know. I may have just been reading too much Heyd.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Maybe steppe dna and R1 will eventually turn up in GAC, but they haven't thus far.
    Right, and R1b-L51>L151 basal lineages aren't turning up anywhere yet but we know it existed somewhere. Please don't misread that as saying that I propose that R1b-L51 originated in GAC. R1b-L51>L151 basal lineages may have existed in GAC as only a small minority elite or specialist type in the culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That's probably right. GAC acquired its use of solar motifs from its steppe neighbors.
    Agreed, as noted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Gimbutas had some pretty good reasons for believing Bell Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol.
    I'm not proposing anything exclusive of this. What I have been calling Danube Yamnaya may have had significant doses of Vucedol in them.

    I don't think we can yet say when or where the Proto-East Bell Beaker culture arose. We can't really say a Proto-Bell Beaker occurred on the east/northeast side of the Adriatic Sea, can we? Perhaps it did, but we know East Bell Beaker expanded in full force in old GAC lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think Bell Beaker, or whatever steppe people became Bell Beaker, took wives from among the GAC people or their descendants. Alexfritz already mentioned a few posts back the X chromosome evidence from Mathieson et al showing that most of the Neolithic farmer stuff in German BB came from the distaff side.
    Can you or Moesen explain this a little more? I'm not following the whole logic chain here. If you are just saying the GAC autosomal ancestry in East Bell Beakers came only from the maternal side - I agree, at least at the outset.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Either way, we've got mixing going on, but you seem to be saying GAC + CW, or GAC + Yamnaya, = Bell Beaker. Am I wrong?

    I just think GAC as a culture had less to do with it than that.
    Yes, but I would not exclude Vucedol and again I'm not committed to this. The proposal being assessed is:

    GAC + Yamnaya (+ Vucedol) = the initiation of the East Bell Beakers.

    Central Europe Neolithic atDNA + Yamnaya atDNA with L51>L151 Y DNA + (perhaps Vucedol atDNA) = begets East Bell Beaker with L151>P312 Y DNA

    I'm not saying the GAC had R1b-L51>L151 lineages at its beginnings, but may have on the eastern edge or as the culture adopted some steppe practices, some L51 types may have been infiltrating. The needle in the haystack. Not much people integration until L151>P312 and full fledged East Bell Beaker.

    It's just an idea.
    Last edited by Mikewww; Yesterday at 01:00 AM. Reason: grammar

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  3. #22
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    This Yamnaya + ? + ?? = Bell Beaker reminds me somewhat of the situation in Latin America where you have y dna dominated by European sources and mt dna often from native sources, and in some areas African Ancestry for either or both. The overall admixture percentages vary greatly depending on where you are in Latin America.

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    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
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    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

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