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Thread: Abstracts from Human Evolution 2017 conference

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Remains to be seen, whether there is N L1026 or some other type of N1c, for that matter. Why do you think it's even probable, if I may ask? Wy not some totally other type of paternal lineage, such as Q?

    I'd be somewhat surprised if Finns did not share a lot of RC with Saami, because of geographics only, if not anything else, such as a common West Uralic root population, despite later influences. Therefore, I'm not sure what's the role of this comparison.
    Well if it's not L1026 and especially if it's something like Q the population is unlikely to be Uralic, but I'm considering all the possibilities here.
    Saami affinity is important because no matter their Y-DNA or language the Bolshoy population seems to have contributed significantly to Saamis (and to their later neighbours and successors). Mordovians are also West Uralic speakers so if Saami affinity indicates West Uralic genetic affinity they're less "Uralic" than Estonians.

  2. #152
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    Father N1c

    Early Metal Age crania from Bolshoy Oleniy Island, Barents Sea (


    A new cranial series from the Early Metal Age burial ground on Bolshoy Oleniy (Great Reindeer) Island in Kola Bay of the Barents Sea is described. So far, this is the only series from the Arctic regions of Europe and the Urals. A multivariate analysis of cranial measurements in 27 prehistoric populations of Northern Eurasia has revealed the specificity of this group. Its most distinct affinities are with populations of Western Siberia and the Altai dating to various periods from the Neolithic to the Early Iron Age. People buried on Bolshoy Oleniy Island apparently belonged to a group of populations characterized by the retention of an ancient trait combination distinguishing it both from Mongoloids of Eastern Siberia and Eastern Central Asia, and from Caucasoids. This group of populations was apparently distributed across most of the tundra zone of Northern Europe and of the taiga areas of the Urals and northwestern Siberia."

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  4. #153
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    YFull has a basal N-M2019(xM2058, M1992) Y-DNA with a reported origin in Läänemaa, Estonia. Not long after the genealogical divergence of the Estonian lineage, N-M2058 has split into the typical Yakut N lineage, a lineage found in an individual in China, and an apparently Turko-Hungarian-type lineage that also has been found in an individual with a reported origin in Zadar County, Croatia. The Chinese, Croatian, Turkish, and Hungarian lineages appear to share in common a single SNP, A9408, that they do not share with the Yakut subclade of N-M2058.

    In other words, the pattern of nesting is (Estonia (Yakutia (China (Croatia (Turkey, Hungary))))), with the Estonian, Yakutian, and Chinese lineages all splitting at roughly the same time (approx. 3,000 ~ 4,500 ybp). The Croatian, Turkish, and Hungarian lineages are significantly more closely related among themselves; the Croatian lineage's TMRCA with the Turkish-Hungarian lineage is estimated to be 1,550 [95% CI 1,000 <-> 2,200] ybp, and the Turkish lineage's TMRCA with the Hungarian lineage is estimated to be 1,050 [95% CI 600 <-> 1,750] ybp.

    Beginning at roughly the same time or slightly earlier, N-M2019's sister clade, N-L1026 (TMRCA 4,700 [95% CI 4,100 <-> 5,500] ybp), appears to have begotten several subclades within a brief span of time, such as N-CTS10760 (a typically European subclade of N1c), N-Z1934 (another typically European subclade of N1c), N-B202 (found in Chukchi, Koryak, and Eskimo in the extreme northeast of Siberia), N-F4205 (found in Mongol, Buryat, Kazakh, Turk, Poland), N-Y24361 (found in Tatarstan, which is technically in Europe according to the modern definition, but the Tatars speak a Turkic language), N-L1442 (found in Bashkortostan and Tatarstan -- again, borderline Europe, but Turcophone), and N-Y28538 (found in Khantia-Mansia and East Kazakhstan Region). N-Y24361, N-L1442, and N-Y28538 appear to comprise a monophyletic subclade, N-Y13850, marked by seven SNPs. Within N-Y13850, N-Y24361 of Tatarstan is slightly basal to a branch that subsumes both the Khanty/Mansi N-Y28538 and Bashkir/Tatar N-L1442 subclades. The Chukotkan N-B202 and Turco-Mongol N-F4205 seem to comprise another monophyletic subclade marked by two SNPs, Y16323/B197 and Y16325/Z35291. At roughly the same time, N-CTS10760 and N-Z1934 should have been starting to produce various subclades in northeastern Europe. (Within N-L1026, N-CTS10760 appears to be slightly more closely related to Chukotkan and Turco-Mongol N-Y16323/B197, whereas N-Z1934 appears to be slightly more closely related to Tatar-Bashkir and Ugric N-Y13850.)

    Neither N-M2019 nor N-L1026 is clearly of European or Asian origin; both are ambiguous. Their MRCA in N-M2126 is estimated to have lived about 6,400 [95% CI 5,500 <-> 7,400] ybp. However, N-M2126's sister clade, N-Y9022 (or N-B211), has been found only in European Russia so far (Penza Oblast, Mordovia, Komi Republic, Bashkortostan, Mari, Udmurt). The MRCA of N-M2126 and N-Y9022 in N-L708 is estimated to have lived 7,500 [95% CI 6,400 <-> 8,600] ybp. A Volga-Ural origin for the majority of extant N1c would appear to be a slightly stronger hypothesis than an Eastern Siberian or East Asian origin judging solely on the phylogeny and geographical distribution of clades derived from N-L708.

    However, N-L708 shares a MRCA with N-Y24317 approximately 10,800 [95% CI 9,500 <-> 12,200] ybp, and N-Y24317 seems to have split very rapidly into one branch found today in South Central Siberia (Khakas, Shor) and another branch found in an individual who has reported an origin in Andhra Pradesh, India. Before that, N-Y23747 has branched from the root of extant N-M178, and it now has representatives in northeastern China (Oroqen) and in Japan. The TMRCA of all extant N-M178 is estimated to be 11,900 [95% CI 10,500 <-> 13,500] ybp; the TMRCA between the Oroqen branch of N-Y23747 and the Japanese branch of N-Y23747 is estimated to be 7,000 [95% CI 5,600 <-> 8,300] ybp. Japan, the Amur River basin, South Central Siberia, the Volga-Ural, and Andhra Pradesh are all quite disparate regions; it is difficult to discern where their common ancestor might have lived.

    At present, it seems difficult to separate the migrations of N-L708 from the migrations of N-P43. Descendants of both are scattered from Slovakia and Finland in the west to Mongolia and Chukotka in the east without much adherence to ethnolinguistic boundaries.

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  6. #154
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    Some extra details regarding Turkic and Ugric N-Y13850 courtesy of the FTDNA N North Eurasian Y-DNA Project:

    TMRCA 4,400 [95% CI 3,600 <-> 5,200] ybp N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 > N-Y13850 [Tatarstan; Bashkortostan; Khantia-Mansia; Kazakhstan (East Kazakhstan Region); Chechnya; Hungary; Greece] vs. (N-CTS2733/Z1928 [Russia (old branch in Vologda Oblast and Arkhangelsk Oblast); Finland; Estonia; Sweden] vs. N-Y18421 [Russia (Tambov Oblast, Kirov Oblast, Republic of Karelia, Tver Oblast, Cossack); Finland])
    TMRCA 4,300 [95% CI 3,500 <-> 5,100] ybp N-Y13850 > N-Y24361 [Hungary; Chechnya; Tatarstan] vs. (N-Y28538 vs. N-L1442)
    TMRCA 3,900 [95% CI 3,000 <-> 4,900] ybp N-Y28538 > N-L1032 [Khantia-Mansia; East Kazakhstan Region] vs. N-Y28538*(xL1032) [Khantia-Mansia]
    TMRCA 2,400 [95% CI 1,800 <-> 3,200] ybp N-L1442 > N-Y24222 [Bashkortostan; Tatarstan] vs. N-Y23732 [Bashkortostan]

    N-L1034 seems to have split into N-Y28538 and N-L1442 almost immediately after the MRCA of N-L1034 and N-Y24361, the latter of which also is found in at least Hungary and Chechnya besides Tatarstan. YFull YTree v5.08 indicates a presence of N-L1034 in Khantia-Mansia, Kazakhstan, Bashkortostan, and Tatarstan; the FTDNA N North Eurasian Y-DNA Project supplements this with data indicating a presence of N-L1034 also in Hungary and Greece.

    The FTDNA data show that N-Y13850, which is approximately the same age as its sister clade, the apparently Finno-Samic N-Z1934 (which actually also has been found among Russians and Swedes, probably as a result of assimilation of previously Finno-Samic males), is also found among Hungarians, and not only among Ob-Ugrians and Kipchak Turks. The cases in Chechnya and Greece indicate that there also has been some diffusion into populations of neighboring territories. So, it appears that N-Z1936 probably has originated some time in the third millennium BCE somewhere near the Urals, and its carrier was probably a speaker of an early Uralic language (or Proto-Uralic itself).

    However, the expansion of N-Z1936 is temporally poorly differentiated from the expansion of its sister clade, N-Y6058 (TMRCA roughly some time in the third millennium or latter half of the fourth millennium BCE). One of N-Y6058's subclades, N-CTS10760, is found in northeastern Europe with a TMRCA of 4,100 [95% CI 3,300 <-> 4,800] ybp according to YFull. N-CTS10760's primary subclades are N-Y28526 (found in Russia, e.g. Komi Republic with a TMRCA of 1,750 [95% CI 1,100 <-> 2,400] ybp estimated from three specimens) and N-VL29 (found throughout Northern Europe and Eastern Europe with a TMRCA of 3,700 [95% CI 3,100 <-> 4,400] ybp).

    The other one of N-Y6058's subclades, N-Y16323/B197 (TMRCA 4,700 [95% CI 4,100 <-> 5,500] ybp according to YFull or 4,882 [95% CI 4,419 <-> 5,348] ybp according to Karmin et al. 2015), has split almost immediately into N-B202 (found in three Koryaks from Severo-Evensk District of the Magadan Region, two Chukchis from Anadyr, Chukotka Autonomous Okrug, and one Eskimo from Novoe Chaplino, Chukotka Autonomous Okrug with a TMRCA of 2,739 [95% CI 2,117 <-> 3,392] ybp according to Karmin et al. 2015; the N-B202 clade is further divided into one subclade, N-B203, found in one Koryak and one Chukchi with a TMRCA of 503 [95% CI 176 <-> 796] ybp and another subclade, N-B204, found in two Koryaks, a Chukchi, and an Eskimo with a TMRCA of 929 [95% CI 606 <-> 1,356] ybp) and N-F4205 (found in Buryatia, Turkey, Poland, et al. with a TMRCA of 2,400 [95% CI 1,800 <-> 3,100] ybp according to YFull and in three Khalkh Mongols in Mongolia, two Buryats in Russia, and one Kazakh in Kazakhstan with a TMRCA of 2,687 [95% CI 2,173 <-> 3,245] ybp according to Karmin et al. 2015; members of the N-F4205 clade have been found in Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkey according to the FTDNA N North Eurasian Y-DNA Project). Note that the TMRCA estimate for Northeast Siberian N-B202 and the TMRCA estimate for Turkic/Mongolic N-F4205 do not differ significantly from each other; the expansions of both these subclades appear to date back to the first millennium BCE or perhaps the final quarter of the second millennium BCE. Turkic/Mongolic N-F4205 appears to be about the same age as the somewhat similarly distributed C-M77. On the other hand, the extant diversity of Northeast Siberian N-B202 appears to be somewhat less than the extant diversity of Northeast Siberian C-B90; I wonder whether any more divergent members of N-B202 might eventually be found among the Yukaghirs or the Tungus, among whom some examples of C-B90 have been found.

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  8. #155
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    N1c1 CTS 12908

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    So, it appears that N-Z1936 probably has originated some time in the third millennium BCE somewhere near the Urals, and its carrier was probably a speaker of an early Uralic language (or Proto-Uralic itself).
    Sounds very reasonable. N-Z1934 apparently lived on the NW side of N-Z1034, the latter possibly then living in the old Hungaria Magna, already in the Bronze Age. N-Z1936 is rather eastern in our local Finnish terms, mostly related to people descending from old Karelians. The origin of their ethnonym is unknown, but related to this link with Hungarians etc., it's sort of interesting that it literally means a "herder".

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