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Thread: Sunghir: social and reproductive behavior of early Upper Paleolithic foragers

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    I think the present-day distribution and diversity of haplogroup T suggest that its MRCA most likely has lived in the Middle East (but a hypothetical origin in Europe is also plausible). The indications for a Middle Eastern origin of L are weaker (basal diversity points toward Europe, and frequency points toward South Asia), but it would not surprise me if the MRCA of haplogroup L also has lived somewhere in the Middle East.

    However, it appears to me that the haplogroup assignments of specimens from Palaeolithic Europe have surprised almost everyone. The K2a of Oase 1, the C1b of Kostenki 14, and the C1a of the Sungir specimens (and also a couple specimens from Goyet and Dolní Věstonice if I am not mistaken) all predate the MRCA of T or the MRCA of L. A Middle Eastern origin of the dispersal of extant branches of T or L would of course be more significant in regard to overall genomic influence than the geographical origin or genomic affinities of a distant pre-bottleneck Y-DNA ancestor (Generalissimo has often made such a point in regard to the MRCA of R1a-M417), but the geographical locations of the "missing branches" from the segment between the LT node and the MRCA of T on the one hand and the MRCA of L on the other are more important if one wants to consider T or L alongside other branches of F-M89 in order to infer the geographical origin of that macro-haplogroup, and I do not know of any ancient DNA data relevant to that question yet. I suppose that I should concede that the null hypothesis should be that the MRCA of extant T has emerged from a bottleneck in the Middle East from an ancestor who has lived in the same region, but I also do not think that it would be too shocking (after seeing the results from Palaeolithic Europe) if we did not find any specimens belonging to haplogroup T anywhere in pre-30,000 ybp West Asia, but rather somewhere in Europe, Central Asia, South Asia, or somewhere that no one would ever expect based solely on the distribution of extant members of the one branch that has survived.

    In brief, I think that a haplogroup like H-M2826 in South Asia or K2b1-Y25867 in Oceania provides more robust evidence for an early Palaeolithic (ca. 45,000 ybp) presence of its MRCA in the same region where its members are found today, whereas haplogroup T or haplogroup L is no more robust evidence (and in fact somewhat less robust evidence) for an origin of haplogroup K in the Middle East than haplogroup R1b is evidence for an origin of haplogroup R in Europe. (Of course, it might be that haplogroup R actually has originated in Europe ca. 25,000 ~ 30,000 ybp and that haplogroup K actually has originated in the Middle East ca. 45,000 ~ 50,000 ybp, but I do not think that extant R1b provides notably robust evidence for such an origin of R, and I likewise do not think that extant T or extant L provides notably robust evidence for such an origin of K.)
    Probably the best I've read so far regarding K and even F as whole, good points! I do think F might have an origin somewhere in South Asia. But where do you think LT probably originated where is the most probable place ? Because most of the diversity of T and L point to the middle east..and according to yfull the oldest L has been found in Europe (probably from neolithic farmers in origin?) Also that Bhutan that is T isn't enough evidence For Ts origin in South Asia because it's the only clade there and there are a lot of migrations since ancient times and it could even be from the migration of middle eastern farmers from the zsgros mountains.

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  3. #112
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    L, if I dare comment in this thread, I'd propose a region around the Zagros. A lot of diversity in L in Western Asia.
    yDNA: L1b2c L-SK1414 (Oxon/Berks at Generation 9)
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  5. #113
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    Looks like my tree is looking more and more true....

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  7. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasser View Post
    Probably the best I've read so far regarding K and even F as whole, good points! I do think F might have an origin somewhere in South Asia. But where do you think LT probably originated where is the most probable place ? Because most of the diversity of T and L point to the middle east..and according to yfull the oldest L has been found in Europe (probably from neolithic farmers in origin?) Also that Bhutan that is T isn't enough evidence For Ts origin in South Asia because it's the only clade there and there are a lot of migrations since ancient times and it could even be from the migration of middle eastern farmers from the zsgros mountains.
    I believe T formed in modern turkistan and L formed sw of T in Lars Persia

    Edit - I found this, the creation of LT marker ( not the split of L and T )



    The Sind Valley is a Himalayan sub-valley of the Kashmir Valley in the State of Jammu and Kashmir of India.

    from the site -
    K (M9) The Eastern population of IJK that emerged in the Paleolithic

    LT (L298) Marker of Paleolithic expansion out of South Asia
    L (M20) Primary South Asian lineage
    T (M184) West Asian Paleolithic expansion
    T1 (L206) Near Eastern Paleolithic expansion
    T1a (M70) Marker of a widespread expansion in the Mesolithic
    Last edited by vettor; 10-13-2017 at 06:42 PM.

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  9. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    I am googling and all I come up with is Mousterian culture, i.e. Neanderthal. Confirmed by DNA from Denisova cave.
    Maju is a total Basque nationalists and he was totally offended by all of my ideas because they were not Euro-centric.

    As for Aurignacian in the Altai, there is a paper of the same name by a Russian archaeologist.

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  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ren View Post
    Maju is a total Basque nationalists and he was totally offended by all of my ideas because they were not Euro-centric.

    As for Aurignacian in the Altai, there is a paper of the same name by a Russian archaeologist.
    O, is it in English?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    O, is it in English?
    Google ?

    http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/2476447...Ant0750044.pdf

    But as I pointed out earlier, I'd take with grain of salt earlier works. They saw Aurignacian everywhere, and now "Asian Aurignacian" industries are rightly recognised as their own cultures .
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 10-14-2017 at 10:26 AM.

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  15. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Google ?

    http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/2476447...Ant0750044.pdf

    But as I pointed out earlier, I'd take with grain of salt earlier works. They saw Aurignacian everywhere, and now "Asian Aurignacian" industries are rightly recognised as their own cultures .
    It shows a gradual development into Aurignacian-like qualities, which is the best lead we have, because later on Aurignacian suddenly appears in Europe fully formed.

    But if you Google Aurignacian and Altai, it should give you several leads even on the first page.

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  17. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ren View Post
    It shows a gradual development into Aurignacian-like qualities, which is the best lead we have, because later on Aurignacian suddenly appears in Europe fully formed.

    But if you Google Aurignacian and Altai, it should give you several leads even on the first page.
    Yes i agree; however the Aurignacian strictly speaking was a European phenomenon, it "came together" in Europe, and its alleged back migration has been overstated in the past. It was limited to some coastal sites in the Levant.
    Any links to "Aurignacian" like features in regions beyond go back to a deeper ''met -population'.
    But as I said, I agree, the eastern route via Russia into Europe needs consideration, if it happened late glacial , Bronze Age etc; why not the EUP also?

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