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Thread: Modern Iranians are not Ancient Iranians! There is a difference!

  1. #81
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    Iranian Jews are Mizrahi, much like Iraqi, Kurdish, Georgian and Uzbek Jews they are principally Mesopotamian in origin, in fact they plot with Assyrians and Mandaeans on most PCAs I've seen.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Iranian Jews are Mizrahi, much like Iraqi, Kurdish, Georgian and Uzbek Jews they are principally Mesopotamian in origin, in fact they plot with Assyrians and Mandaeans on most PCAs I've seen.
    Interesting, thanks for the reply. Are you a Romaniote Jew? Or are you Ashkenazi? Your use of Greek suggests the latter. In terms of your Y-DNA and MtDNA, you're as Jewish as it gets. Pretty much a Cohenim in my opinion.

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xehanort View Post
    Interesting, thanks for the reply. Are you a Romaniote Jew? Or are you Ashkenazi? Your use of Greek suggests the latter. In terms of your Y-DNA and MtDNA, you're as Jewish as it gets. Pretty much a Cohenim in my opinion.
    No, I am not a Romaniote Jew. My father is mainly Ashkenazi (from Belarus and Ukraine/Crimea), he has some distant Syrian Jewish and Iranian Jewish ancestry (as well as very distant Samaritan ancestry, this shows up consistently). My mother is British (English, Scottish, Welsh, Manx). Indeed, my paternal lineage is the famous "Cohen Modal Haplotype" (you could call J1-Z18271 the "Cohen Modal SNP" for that matter), my mtDNA haplogroup hasn't got much to do with the Jews though (it was found in two Corded Ware samples and one Bell Beaker sample).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    No, I am not a Romaniote Jew. My father is mainly Ashkenazi (from Belarus and Ukraine/Crimea), he has some distant Syrian Jewish and Iranian Jewish ancestry (as well as very distant Samaritan ancestry, this shows up consistently). My mother is British (English, Scottish, Welsh, Manx). Indeed, my paternal lineage is the famous "Cohen Modal Haplotype" (you could call J1-Z18271 the "Cohen Modal SNP" for that matter), my mtDNA haplogroup hasn't got much to do with the Jews though (it was found in two Corded Ware samples and one Bell Beaker sample).
    Oh, alright. Thanks for clarifying. I always found it interesting how Ashkenazi Jews managed to maintain their paternal Jewish lineage, despite centuries of separation from their ancestral homeland in the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xehanort View Post
    Oh, alright. Thanks for clarifying. I always found it interesting how Ashkenazi Jews managed to maintain their paternal Jewish lineage, despite centuries of separation from their ancestral homeland in the Middle East.
    You are quite right, for instance the fact that my paternal lineage is found in Kohanim from virtually every Jewish community (including Mizrahi Jews) is quite impressive, this tells us priestly status was taken very seriously by the Jews. IMO the fact that Ashkenazi and other Western Jews (French, Italian, Romaniote, Sephardic, North African & Syro-Lebanese Jews) still form a single population from a genetic standpoint after nearly 2,000 years of exile is even more impressive, this bears testimony to the Jewish people's resilience in a sense.

    Anyway, sorry for the off-topic digression!
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-14-2017 at 04:44 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    You are quite right, for instance the fact that my paternal lineage is found in Kohanim from virtually every Jewish community (including Mizrahi Jews) is quite impressive, this tells us priestly status was taken very seriously by the Jews. IMO the fact that Ashkenazi and other Western Jews (French, Italian, Romaniote, Sephardic, North African & Syro-Lebanese Jews) still form a single population from a genetic standpoint after nearly 2,000 years of exile is even more impressive, this bears testimony to the Jewish people's resilience in a sense.

    Anyway, sorry for the off-topic digression!
    No worries. I appreciate your comments and feedback. Thank you . It's been a pleasure talking to you! And you're right, this is exactly why the Jewish people were able to maintain their lineage. I was wondering, though, why do eastern Jews (Iranian, Yemeni, Iraqi, Bukharan, Indian) form a separate cluster than western Jews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xehanort View Post
    No worries. I appreciate your comments and feedback. Thank you . It's been a pleasure talking to you! And you're right, this is exactly why the Jewish people were able to maintain their lineage. I was wondering, though, why do eastern Jews (Iranian, Yemeni, Iraqi, Bukharan, Indian) form a separate cluster than western Jews?
    You're welcome Regarding your question, the answer is rather simple really. Mizrahi/Eastern Jews form a separate population mainly because they are by and large of Mesopotamian origin, and Mesopotamia had the oldest Jewish communities outside the land of Israel (though Egypt also happens to be a serious contender). Jews have lived in Mesopotamia at least since the last 2,500 years, that is to say long before the laws regulating intermarriage appeared, moreover they had plenty of time to mingle with their host population (Jewishness was transmitted patrilineally prior to the Tanna'im, this would explain why the paternal lineages tend to be shared with Western Jews despite the different cluster they form). IMO the genetic dichotomy between Eastern and Western Jews reflects Aramaic and Greek-speaking Jewry more than anything else.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-14-2017 at 11:47 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xehanort View Post
    Thanks, and I certainly agree with your observation here. However, some Iranian populations do seem to have significant foreign admixture, although, none of it seems to be Arab, of course. The Arab genetic impact on Iran was virtually nil, and the Jewish impact could have been greater as many Jews converted to Islam after the arrival of the Arabs, and likely intermingled with the local population. Jews are shown to have more Semitic/Arabian admixture than other Iranian populations, likely due to their origin as a Semitic peoples. Another population which is significantly mixed is the Bandari people, who are outlier in the Iranian gene pool due to their significant South Asian and African admixture. Thus, it is my understanding that Iranian Jews, Iranian Bandaris, and even Iranian Arabs cannot be considered an wholly Iranic population. The same can be said about Iranian Azeris and Iranian Turkmen, both of which have significant Mongoloid admixture, although it is much more limited in the Azeris (5 to 15%). Azerbaijanis from Azerbaijan are certainly a whole different case, as they are more similar to Armenians and Georgians. Overall, however, I feel that the Iranian population has largely remained stable, but there does seem to be an influx of South Asian and Mongoloid genes since the 14th century, minor African admixture as well in some cases (Of course the South Asian could be hidden Neolithic Iranian admixture). I appreciate your reply! I was also wondering though, aren't many Caspians mixed with Georgians and Armenians? I remember that Shah Abbas imported a lot of Georgian and Armenians into his empire, although at the time this would have account for only about 2% of Iran's population (200,000 out of 12,000,000). Unfortunately, the Iranian population declined significantly following the fall of the Safavid dynasty and the rise of Nader Shah and his wars of conquest (12,000,000 to 1,400,000).
    Iranians, by and large, haven't changed substantially since the Iron Age. That is the central conclusion that must not be overshadowed by any emphasis of the differences between modern Iranian populations.

    There has, however, been significant admixture through additional sources since the Iron Age in select populations. As you highlighted, there is East Eurasian admixture across most of the plateau (though it seems to only exceed 2% in northern populations). The most reliable vector for this is through the Turkish migrations. There is also Sub Saharan admixture across the southern half of the plateau, and the most reliable vector is likely going to be the Islamic slave trade. From what can be inferred through the ADMIXTURE-derived Oracle results, the absolute majority of Iranians are at least 90% of the "same stuff" as their ancestral kin.
    Whether the remaining 10% grants different individuals an outlier status is admittedly arbitrary. As an example, am I an "outlier" when I score 89% Iranian 11% European in the Oracles? Up for debate, though I'm not convinced that debate (and the underlying urgency to concretely define what constitutes an outlier vs. conventional) is worth the time taken.

    There probably are a sizable (arbitrary guess - 5-10,000 people?) number of Iranians with substantial admixture from the Arabian peninsula. Some of the Behar et al. Iranians have a full 1 SD greater "SW Asian"-related component scores compared to others in that sample set. However, we don't have any formal stats to show whether that is in fact Arabian ancestry, or instead, surplus BE affinity (the indigenous Iranian farmers were more BE than modern Iranians). If I were to hazard a guess, those Iranians with Arabian ancestry would mostly be among the religious class (recall their somewhat endogamous subculture and frequent pairing with Muslims elsewhere in the Islamic world, particularly in Iraq) or the southern coastal towns.

    Many people from northern Iran have ancestry from the Caucasus, yes. The degree appears to vary. Some have recent known admixture (e.g. NK19191 on this forum, who is a quarter Georgian), others have very distant connections (such as myself; I'm nothing but Azeri Iranian or Persian on both sides going back 5-6 generations).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Iranians, by and large, haven't changed substantially since the Iron Age. That is the central conclusion that must not be overshadowed by any emphasis of the differences between modern Iranian populations.

    There has, however, been significant admixture through additional sources since the Iron Age in select populations. As you highlighted, there is East Eurasian admixture across most of the plateau (though it seems to only exceed 2% in northern populations). The most reliable vector for this is through the Turkish migrations. There is also Sub Saharan admixture across the southern half of the plateau, and the most reliable vector is likely going to be the Islamic slave trade. From what can be inferred through the ADMIXTURE-derived Oracle results, the absolute majority of Iranians are at least 90% of the "same stuff" as their ancestral kin.
    Whether the remaining 10% grants different individuals an outlier status is admittedly arbitrary. As an example, am I an "outlier" when I score 89% Iranian 11% European in the Oracles? Up for debate, though I'm not convinced that debate (and the underlying urgency to concretely define what constitutes an outlier vs. conventional) is worth the time taken.

    There probably are a sizable (arbitrary guess - 5-10,000 people?) number of Iranians with substantial admixture from the Arabian peninsula. Some of the Behar et al. Iranians have a full 1 SD greater "SW Asian"-related component scores compared to others in that sample set. However, we don't have any formal stats to show whether that is in fact Arabian ancestry, or instead, surplus BE affinity (the indigenous Iranian farmers were more BE than modern Iranians). If I were to hazard a guess, those Iranians with Arabian ancestry would mostly be among the religious class (recall their somewhat endogamous subculture and frequent pairing with Muslims elsewhere in the Islamic world, particularly in Iraq) or the southern coastal towns.

    Many people from northern Iran have ancestry from the Caucasus, yes. The degree appears to vary. Some have recent known admixture (e.g. NK19191 on this forum, who is a quarter Georgian), others have very distant connections (such as myself; I'm nothing but Azeri Iranian or Persian on both sides going back 5-6 generations).
    I see, thanks for your reply. I do think that Bandaris are outliers, since they have around 6 to 10% African ancestry, and 20 to 30% South Asian admixture. They also don't look very Iranic, compared to the other Iranian populations. Bandaris are basically South Asians, and cluster the closest with Pakistani Makranis. In fact, most Bandaris are descended from Indian and African slaves who were imported to the Iranian Plateau by the Portuguese. The Subsaharan African in Iranians is over estimated in my opinion, and in reality it is virtually absent in the majority of Iranians. The Behar et. al Iranians were likely Bandaris. I think that most studies need to be done on Ancient Iranians. We still lack samples from the Sassanid era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    You're welcome Regarding your question, the answer is rather simple really. Mizrahi/Eastern Jews form a separate population mainly because they are by and large of Mesopotamian origin, and Mesopotamia had the oldest Jewish communities outside the land of Israel (though Egypt also happens to be a serious contender). Jews have lived in Mesopotamia at least since the last 2,500 years, that is to say long before the laws regulating intermarriage appeared, moreover they had plenty of time to mingle with their host population (Jewishness was transmitted patrilineally prior to the Tanna'im, this would explain why the paternal lineages tend to be shared with Western Jews despite the different cluster they form). IMO the genetic dichotomy between Eastern and Western Jews reflects Aramaic and Greek-speaking Jewry more than anything else.
    Thanks for answering my inquiry. Do most Eastern Jews have J1 or J2 as their Y-DNA? I would assume it's the latter. Also, are Yemeni Jews likely descendants of Yemeni converts?

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