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Thread: Modern Iranians are not Ancient Iranians! There is a difference!

  1. #1
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    Modern Iranians are not Ancient Iranians! There is a difference!

    Hi everyone, there was a recent DNA study comparing modern Iranians and Iranian Zoroastrians, and it turns out and modern Iranians are completely different from their ancestors. There is significant evidence that suggests that modern Iranians have elevated Middle Eastern and South Asian ancestry, and in the case of the Bandaris, African ancestry.

    Source (can't post link), look up: The Genetic Legacy of Zoroastrianism in Iran and India: Insights into Population Structure, Gene Flow, and Selection (Science Direct)

    Genetiker's analysis of the Genomes, source (scroll down to see the comparisons): Genetiker, Ancient Egyptian K = 14 Analysis (scroll down to see the Iranian samples).

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    Just like in any people. We need to understand the differences. We still don't have any comprehensive study about Ancient Iranians or even modern Iranians. What were the Ancient Iranian specific Y-DNA clusters, mtDNA and atDNA. There's a big gap in the investigation and we need more ancient samples because Iran was a central hub of the Eurasian demographic transformations. I think I could discover at least one of the Ancient Iranian Y-DNA J1 lines in my investigations J1-FGC6064 and downstream SNPs are completely different from other regions but we need NGS of specific Iranian J2, R1a, G, L types born in Iran in the last thousand years and different from the Turkic, Mongolian, Arabic, Caucasian, Slavic or Indic clusters.
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    Well, the study found that the Y-DNA was mainly the same, Haplogroup J2 was the majority. There are some variations in the MtDNA, but overall that looks stable as well. The difference here is just that modern Iranians have reduced Neolithic Iranian genes, mainly due to mixing with Turks.

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    I think they had important changes. It's important to find what were or are the possible specific Iranian Y-DNA clusters because they have spatial and temporal structures related mainly to Iranian populations. We can observe the Y-DNA SNPs only associated or mainly concentrated within the Iranian populations, just like we can find what are the clusters and SNPs usually associated to any other existing ethno-historical groups. Others arrived, migrated or invaded Iran from other places and they also match with non-Iranian clusters from other regions and cultures not primarily or exclusively associated with the Ancient Iranian Peoples. The problem here is nobody has ever made a good article about NGS Iranian Y-DNA. What are the possible Iranian J2, J1, R1a, L, G ethno-historical clusters found primarily and exclusively in Iranian populations and different from Turkic, Mongolian, Arabic, Caucasian, Slavic or Indic clusters ?
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
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    I am not sure, to be honest. However, I think the Iranian gene pool has remained stable for the same part, and I am not denying that. All I am saying is that modern Iranians have increased non-Iranian ancestry than the Zoroastrians, mainly from Turks, but also from Middle Easterners and South Asians. I would say that Iranians are still 50 to 85% the same as their ancestors. Until we find an Achaemenid or Sassanid sample which is adequate for DNA testing, we cannot conclusively determine the amount of non-Iranic ancestry in Iranians.

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    The ancient Iranians that had settled Iran were not pure North European like people. The Indo-Iranians had settled in what is known as BMAC region in Central Asia where they mixed with a much larger population. By the time they made to Iran these Ancient iranians(Ancestors of Persians,Medes) were heavly Central South Asian like with some North Euro. Modern day Iranians like Persians and Kurds both show a shift towards Central Asia then any other groups in the Middle-East. Also by the time of the Parthians, Iranians had already Iranized all the native population.

    I believe 20-30% of modern day Iranian ancestry comes from the Iranians that came from the BMAC Iranians.

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    Per formal stats (e.g. qpAdm), modern Iranians are predominantly Chalcolithic and Neolithic Iranian farmer (usually over 70%). The next largest component is Late Neolithic Bronze Age ancestry from the Eurasian steppes (over 15%). Additionally, most modern Iranians are over 70% similar to the Iron Age Iranian from NW Iran (Hasanlu Tepe, south of Urmia). That is in spite of the apparent prehistoric regional differences in autochthonous ancestry (southern Iranians seem to have a surplus in quasi-ASI-Iran_N-type ancestry, whereas the north has more EEF).

    Therefore, modern Iranians certainly aren't ancient Iranians, but there is a remarkable degree of continuity from the Chalcolithic onwards (contrast this with the stark difference in autosomal profile between the Neolithic Stuttgart genome and modern Germans). We can also be quite certain the bulk of that difference is through a surplus in pre-Turkish Indo-European steppe heritage. We also do not need Achaemanid or Sassanid aDNA to arrive at these conclusions, as we have an Iron Age Iranian sample that comfortably approximates the majority of the heritage of most Iranians.

    The main difference between the Iron Age Iranian and modern Iranians from around that vicinity is that the latter tend to have more LNBA steppe heritage. However, we do not know much about the socio-linguistic position of this individual. He existed just before the Median empire was established. We also do not know how typical he was of his era. Ergo, the nature of the inflated LNBA steppe in modern NW Iranians relative to him is uncertain at this point.

    The difference highlighted between Zoroastrians and other Iranians represents regional differences in ancestry for the most part. The general trajectory of difference between Zoroastrians from Yazd versus Mazandaranis and other northern Iranians is akin to that shared between the latter groups and other southern Iranian populations. The additional non-plateau ancestry in non-Zoroastrian Iranians (either East Eurasian or Sub-Saharan) looks to be about 0-5% in the majority.

    As a penultimate closing comment, we have read speculation (usually from non-Iranians) for years that modern Iranians are substantially different from their ancient ancestors through non-plateau admixture. We can now disregard that oft-repeated assumption with quantifiable evidence.

    The final closing comment relates to the Kurds (particularly the Kurmanji) - We can consider them to be NW Iranians from a genetic standpoint for all intents and purposes, permitting us to include them in the points above concerning NW Iranians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Per formal stats (e.g. qpAdm), modern Iranians are predominantly Chalcolithic and Neolithic Iranian farmer (usually over 70%). The next largest component is Late Neolithic Bronze Age ancestry from the Eurasian steppes (over 15%). Additionally, most modern Iranians are over 70% similar to the Iron Age Iranian from NW Iran (Hasanlu Tepe, south of Urmia). That is in spite of the apparent prehistoric regional differences in autochthonous ancestry (southern Iranians seem to have a surplus in quasi-ASI-Iran_N-type ancestry, whereas the north has more EEF).

    Therefore, modern Iranians certainly aren't ancient Iranians, but there is a remarkable degree of continuity from the Chalcolithic onwards (contrast this with the stark difference in autosomal profile between the Neolithic Stuttgart genome and modern Germans). We can also be quite certain the bulk of that difference is through a surplus in pre-Turkish Indo-European steppe heritage. We also do not need Achaemanid or Sassanid aDNA to arrive at these conclusions, as we have an Iron Age Iranian sample that comfortably approximates the majority of the heritage of most Iranians.

    The main difference between the Iron Age Iranian and modern Iranians from around that vicinity is that the latter tend to have more LNBA steppe heritage. However, we do not know much about the socio-linguistic position of this individual. He existed just before the Median empire was established. We also do not know how typical he was of his era. Ergo, the nature of the inflated LNBA steppe in modern NW Iranians relative to him is uncertain at this point.

    The difference highlighted between Zoroastrians and other Iranians represents regional differences in ancestry for the most part. The general trajectory of difference between Zoroastrians from Yazd versus Mazandaranis and other northern Iranians is akin to that shared between the latter groups and other southern Iranian populations. The additional non-plateau ancestry in non-Zoroastrian Iranians (either East Eurasian or Sub-Saharan) looks to be about 0-5% in the majority.

    As a penultimate closing comment, we have read speculation (usually from non-Iranians) for years that modern Iranians are substantially different from their ancient ancestors through non-plateau admixture. We can now disregard that oft-repeated assumption with quantifiable evidence.

    The final closing comment relates to the Kurds (particularly the Kurmanji) - We can consider them to be NW Iranians from a genetic standpoint for all intents and purposes, permitting us to include them in the points above concerning NW Iranians.
    Thanks for replying. So basically, modern Iranians are pretty much the same with minor variations in their genetic composition. I think the African ancestry is usually no more than 1%, but many also have 0%. I was wondering, though, why is there a bit of a difference between Ancient and Modern Iranians, despite the genetic continuity of 70%? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    The ancient Iranians that had settled Iran were not pure North European like people. The Indo-Iranians had settled in what is known as BMAC region in Central Asia where they mixed with a much larger population. By the time they made to Iran these Ancient iranians(Ancestors of Persians,Medes) were heavly Central South Asian like with some North Euro. Modern day Iranians like Persians and Kurds both show a shift towards Central Asia then any other groups in the Middle-East. Also by the time of the Parthians, Iranians had already Iranized all the native population.

    I believe 20-30% of modern day Iranian ancestry comes from the Iranians that came from the BMAC Iranians.
    Thanks, I appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarDS9 View Post
    The ancient Iranians that had settled Iran were not pure North European like people. The Indo-Iranians had settled in what is known as BMAC region in Central Asia where they mixed with a much larger population. By the time they made to Iran these Ancient iranians(Ancestors of Persians,Medes) were heavly Central South Asian like with some North Euro. Modern day Iranians like Persians and Kurds both show a shift towards Central Asia then any other groups in the Middle-East. Also by the time of the Parthians, Iranians had already Iranized all the native population.

    I believe 20-30% of modern day Iranian ancestry comes from the Iranians that came from the BMAC Iranians.
    So the whole Indo-European genetic identity is really over exaggerated when it comes to modern day Farsi speaking Persian/Iranians?

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