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Thread: What is the most accurate GEDmatch calculator for South Asian ancestry?

  1. #11
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    You've certainly generated alot of comments on that youtube link!

    Khojas are an interesting bunch Khana, seem very Sindhi shifted? A purely geographical observation - Sindh to Rann of Kutch to Gujurat proper?

    I am surprised at how little steppe some Gujaratis can score. What explains this?

    Some Bengali results for PuntDNAL K13:

    Myself:

    1 South_Asia 49.15
    2 West_Asia 24.71
    3 NE_Asia 7.55
    4 NE_Europe 6.1
    5 SE_Asia 5.01
    6 Siberia 3.5
    7 South_Africa 1.25
    8 Oceania 1.07
    9 Americas 0.7
    10 SW_Asia 0.59
    11 West_Africa 0.2
    12 East_Africa 0.17

    Mother:

    1 South_Asia 47.6
    2 West_Asia 25.92
    3 NE_Asia 6.19
    4 NE_Europe 5.81
    5 SE_Asia 5.51
    6 Siberia 2.83
    7 SW_Asia 1.36
    8 SW_Europe 1.24
    9 Oceania 1.14
    10 South_Africa 1.03
    11 Americas 0.85
    12 East_Africa 0.37
    13 West_Africa 0.14

    Father:


    1 South_Asia 51.35
    2 West_Asia 24.81
    3 NE_Asia 6.04
    4 NE_Europe 5.73
    5 SE_Asia 5.2
    6 Siberia 3.16
    7 Americas 1.36
    8 Oceania 1.33
    9 West_Africa 0.45
    10 South_Africa 0.34
    11 SW_Asia 0.21

    Wife:

    1 South_Asia 48.77
    2 West_Asia 25.47
    3 NE_Asia 7.08
    4 NE_Europe 5.91
    5 SE_Asia 5.07
    6 Siberia 2.64
    7 Oceania 1.64
    8 SW_Europe 1.43
    9 Americas 0.88
    10 West_Africa 0.83
    11 East_Africa 0.26

    Other Bengali results

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ackkracck View Post
    Eurasia K9 ASI Oracle results:

    Eurasia K9 ASI Oracle

    Kit M280595

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 50.67
    2 Ancestral_South_Indian 19.74
    3 SE_Asian 16.27
    4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 4.38
    5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.81
    6 WHG 2.54
    7 Siberian_E_Asian 1.42
    8 W_African 1.36
    9 SW_Asian 0.81

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Bengali 8.46
    2 Burusho 11.87
    3 Punjabi 13.67
    4 Pathan 16.37
    5 Pashtun_Afghan 20.43
    6 Kurd_SE 20.62
    7 Kalash 21.9
    8 Tajik_Afghan 22.09
    9 Balochi 22.77
    10 Brahui 22.85
    11 Uzbek_Afghan 24.04
    12 Makrani 24.8
    13 Paniyas 26.07
    14 Tajik_Pomiri 27.18
    15 Hazara_Afghan 27.83
    16 Puliyar 29.27
    17 Ho 31.49
    18 Kharia 32.45
    19 KOTIAS 34.04
    20 Turkmen 34.89


    This is what i got for Eurasia K9 ASI, however Bengali also seems a bit odd lol, Im starting to think that none of these calculators have enough Gujarati samples
    If I remember correctly, I am the only Bengali sample used in that K9 ASI calculator to create the Bengali average for the oracle (hence my distance is 0.01) so I would ignore that reference to Bengalis except to suggest that my results are closer to yours than yours to the Punjabi average.

    It also makes it difficult for other Bengalis in the oracle, as they're effectively being compared to me, so my mother comes out with these funny results:

    7 88.2% Bengali + 11.8% Uzbek @ 2.37
    8 92.5% Bengali + 7.5% Maltese @ 2.48
    9 89.8% Bengali + 10.2% Kumyk @ 2.51
    10 92.7% Bengali + 7.3% Albanian @ 2.53
    11 92.5% Bengali + 7.5% Sicilian @ 2.54
    12 92.5% Bengali + 7.5% Greek @ 2.57

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  5. #13
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    Never seen a South Asian with a proper Aussie accent. Quite unique from all the British South Asian accents I've seen. Nice video man.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 09-14-2017 at 07:15 AM.

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    You've certainly generated alot of comments on that youtube link!

    Khojas are an interesting bunch Khana, seem very Sindhi shifted? A purely geographical observation - Sindh to Rann of Kutch to Gujurat proper?
    Kutchi language is very similar to Sindhi. I believe it's actually closer to Sindhi than it is to Gujarati proper. As for Khojas, I believe they are Muslims of Lohana origin. Memons are Muslims of Lohana origin as well. However, I think they fall under a different sect of Islam than Khojas.

    There are 3 groups of Lohanas:

    Sindhi Lohanas (those who migrated from Sind after partition of India), Kutchi Lohanas (those living or having ancestry in Kutch), and those of Gujarati Lohanas (those living or having ancestry in Saurashtra). Historically, I believe all Lohana originate from Sindh. Those in Kutch and Saurashtra are supposed to have migrated after Sindh fell under Muslim rule of Muhammad bin Qasim. Hindu Sindhis either faced pressure to convert to Islam or face persecution. There's a bit more history to it but eventually they began to migrate toward Kutch and Saurashtra. Over time, the Lohana migrants assimilated into Gujarati culture and primarily divided into Kutchi and Saurashtra Lohana.


    This information is taken from wiki per these sources:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=hY5AAAAAMAAJ

    https://books.google.com/books?id=j-...jasraj&f=false
    Last edited by Sapporo; 09-14-2017 at 07:19 AM.

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    That's pretty high SI for Gujurati I've seen. Are you patel?

    My punt K13 global

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 South_Asia 38.58
    2 West_Asia 37.23
    3 NE_Europe 15.32
    4 Siberia 3.16
    5 SW_Asia 1.51
    6 SW_Europe 1.47
    7 SE_Asia 1.41
    8 Americas 0.9
    9 West_Africa 0.3
    10 Oceania 0.12
    Actually pretty normal for Gujarati D types, he seems typical for a "Patel" group, interestingly they score just like those South Indians Khana has. Those Ismailis , Lohanas seem to cluster together, though Ismailis are more near eastern shifted and the Lohanas more steppe shifted. Are the Ismailis and Lohanas from Western Sind or border regions with Balochistan Khana?

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  10. #16
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    Comparing to the Gujarati averages on MDLP K16:

    Amerindian Ancestor Steppe Indian Arctic Australian Caucasian EastAfrican NorthEastEuropean NearEast Neolithic NorthAfrican Oceanic Siberian SouthEastAsian Subsaharian
    IN; GUJARAT - ackkracck 0.36% 0.28% 3.35% 66.57% 0.70% 2.71% 9.35% 0.00% 0.54% 0.04% 1.32% 0.51% 0.97% 0.24% 12.59% 0.46%
    GujaratiA_GIH 1.04% 0.44% 7.14% 60.21% 1.20% 0.77% 15.49% 0.56% 5.01% 0.10% 2.87% 0.22% 1.28% 0.65% 2.85% 0.18%
    GujaratiB_GIH 0.71% 0.27% 5.37% 65.33% 0.29% 1.08% 12.31% 0.66% 3.33% 0.00% 1.83% 0.29% 1.42% 1.38% 5.48% 0.25%
    GujaratiC_GIH 0.58% 0.12% 2.58% 73.28% 0.14% 1.59% 7.16% 0.43% 1.03% 0.15% 2.96% 0.48% 1.58% 1.21% 6.68% 0.02%
    GujaratiD_GIH 0.44% 0.24% 0.17% 76.41% 0.18% 1.92% 5.87% 0.58% 0.83% 0.07% 1.95% 0.70% 1.38% 0.88% 8.10% 0.27%
    Bengali 0.32% 0.56% 2.73% 62.67% 1.23% 2.47% 10.60% 0.17% 0.77% 0.57% 0.16% 0.49% 1.44% 1.99% 12.85% 0.01
    Bengali_Bangladesh_BEB 0.52% 0.23% 0.27% 69.92% 0.66% 2.63% 0.45% 0.86% 0.29% 0.15% 3.17% 1.41% 1.10% 2.14% 15.96% 0.0023


    You are similar to the GujaratiB average but with lowered Caucasian and NE Europe and elevated SE Asian (significantly so, in my opinion). I would posit you have a grandparent who has some ancestry from further east because the elevated SE Asian can't seem to be accounted for by just variation of mixing between the different Gujarati sets. Actually, it is possible that you could be some variation of Gujarati A + D (or even B+C), where the GujaratiD individual was slightly more SE Asian and less ASI than average formed for GujaratiD and where the GujaratiA individual having the opposite trend in relation the GujaratiA average.

    I haven't run the individual Gujarati samples to compare you with yet.

    Your SE Asian is probably why you are getting Bengali in some of your oracles, as your ASI/Caucasian is in the range of some Bengalis and you have a significantly higher SE Asian percentage relative to the Gujarati averages.

    However, if I can find the Gujararti sample set and run them one by one, we may find you are well within the "range" of Gujarati. Remember, averages condense a whole set of people to one point. When in reality there is a spread, and you are probably just on the Eastern-shifted side of this spread.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 09-14-2017 at 08:58 AM.
    If old noir black & white photography tickles your fancy: Hidden Content
    [I do, respectfully, ask that one doesn't repost, rehost, copy, save, or share the family photos -- such old personal family photos are rare in South Asia, and I would like to share them with those who are curious; I hope I do not regret the decision. The rest of the pictures are publically available online, so do with as you like!]

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  12. #17
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    @khana

    Do you have any idea what sample population Vadim used on MDLP K16 Modern for Pathan (Punjab)? Does he have an individual sample from an Indian or Pakistani Punjabi "Pathan" (Pashtun that assimilated into Punjab) or is it some mixed individual from Punjab claiming Pathan heritage? It shows up as my first population for single population sharing. He has some population called Pashtun (Pakistan) too. Is that made up of the Mohmand individual sample you from FATA and others like Sein, Kaido, etc? It doesn't like it is the HGDP Pathans from FATA/Kurram Valley unless only specific individuals were used.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 09-14-2017 at 08:56 AM.

  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    @khana

    Do you have any idea what sample population Vadim used on MDLP K16 Modern for Pathan (Punjab)? Does he have an individual sample from an Indian or Pakistani Punjabi "Pathan" (Pashtun that assimilated into Punjab) or is it some mixed individual from Punjab claiming Pathan heritage? It shows up as my first population for single population sharing. He has some population called Pashtun (Pakistan) too. Is that made up of the Mohmand individual sample you from FATA and others like Sein, Kaido, etc? It doesn't like it is the HGDP Pathans from FATA/Kurram Valley unless only specific individuals were used.

    I do believe he uses my Mohmand Pashtun + Sein and a few others for "Pashtun Pakistan". I think he may use the Yusufzai Swati (Kaido + his Cousin and others) for Pathan? Or maybe he is using some of the HGDP samples for "Pathan". I have the HGDP Pathan samples, they have a bit of a range. So perhaps he split them? I haven't run them all yet so I'm not sure the entire range. What is "Pathan" and "Pashtun" in each calculator is very relative, because everyone makes their own sets. For example, my Baloch average is different from PuntDNALKing's on the K13 because I ran the entire HGDP set, and I imagine he uses 4-5?

    I have been planning to make some averages, but the best way to do so is eluding me. I am thinking to go by geography when available like how we do the the PJL samples (ie. Pashtuns_in_Peshawar; Pashtuns_in_Kandahar). Or perhaps by cardinals (Pashtun_SW would be like Kandahar and Quetta). In the absence of location information it's hard to group people specifically though.

    tl;dr: I am not sure. LOL.
    If old noir black & white photography tickles your fancy: Hidden Content
    [I do, respectfully, ask that one doesn't repost, rehost, copy, save, or share the family photos -- such old personal family photos are rare in South Asia, and I would like to share them with those who are curious; I hope I do not regret the decision. The rest of the pictures are publically available online, so do with as you like!]

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  15. #19
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    @ Reza, Pegasus, Sapporo:

    The Lohanas and Kutchi samples are mostly living in Gujarat or in Karachi. Though the Nayani sample is from Tanzania (I put TZ: Nayani in the name). The Khoja/Kutchi are from the Rann of Kutch which is "between" Sindh and Gujarat -- I believe the '65 war started over this region. Anyways, their language is between Gujarati and Sindhi, but more like Gujarati from what I understand. My best friend in college was a Jafari' Kutchi, I can ask him for more information on all their history.

    All these groups are so much more Sindhi-shifted to the point that I feel calling it "Sindhi-shifted" isn't accurate; they're "shifted" relative to whom? It is just that there are parts of the Rann of Kutch and Gujarat in general that are genetically very similar to the rest of Sindh. I think it is more accurate to look at it like this: various groups in Gujarat and Sindh are equally West-Asian shifted, and probably closely related.

    I tend to view all these groups like Memon, Lohana, and Kutchi as a cluster in its own right in relation to Sindhi and Gujarati. However, if I had to place them under one "label" or the other I would place them all under Sindhi, genetically; Gujarati, linguistically.
    Last edited by khanabadoshi; 09-14-2017 at 09:48 AM.
    If old noir black & white photography tickles your fancy: Hidden Content
    [I do, respectfully, ask that one doesn't repost, rehost, copy, save, or share the family photos -- such old personal family photos are rare in South Asia, and I would like to share them with those who are curious; I hope I do not regret the decision. The rest of the pictures are publically available online, so do with as you like!]

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  17. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    I do believe he uses my Mohmand Pashtun + Sein and a few others for "Pashtun Pakistan". I think he may use the Yusufzai Swati (Kaido + his Cousin and others) for Pathan? Or maybe he is using some of the HGDP samples for "Pathan". I have the HGDP Pathan samples, they have a bit of a range. So perhaps he split them? I haven't run them all yet so I'm not sure the entire range. What is "Pathan" and "Pashtun" in each calculator is very relative, because everyone makes their own sets. For example, my Baloch average is different from PuntDNALKing's on the K13 because I ran the entire HGDP set, and I imagine he uses 4-5?

    I have been planning to make some averages, but the best way to do so is eluding me. I am thinking to go by geography when available like how we do the the PJL samples (ie. Pashtuns_in_Peshawar; Pashtuns_in_Kandahar). Or perhaps by cardinals (Pashtun_SW would be like Kandahar and Quetta). In the absence of location information it's hard to group people specifically though.

    tl;dr: I am not sure. LOL.
    No worries man. I just wish he defined his categories better or perhaps alluded to if they were from an academic set or volunteers who provided their raw data. You're right about the HGDP Pathans though. Their range is insane. I don't think all of them should be used when creating an average for a calculator. Maybe take the 10 most similar samples with the least deviation in admixture scores? It would eliminate the 4-5 biggest outliers. As for Pashtuns, I think a good categorization method for samples could be something like Pakhtun_KP, Pakhtun_FATA, Pashtun_Quetta (or Pashtun_Balochistan), Pashtun_N2KL, Pashtun_Kandahar, Pashtun_Loya Paktia, etc. Another option is Pakhtun_Karlani, Pashtun_Sarbani, Pakhtun_Gharghashti and Pashtun_Ghilji with the city or province in parentheses?

    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    @ Reza, Pegasus, Sapporo:

    The Lohanas and Kutchi samples are mostly living in Gujarat or in Karachi. Though the Nayani sample is from Tanzania (I put TZ: Nayani in the name). The Khoja/Kutchi are from the Rann of Kutch which is "between" Sindh and Gujarat -- I believe the '65 war started over this region. Anyways, their language is between Gujarati and Sindhi, but more like Gujarati from what I understand. My best friend in college was a Jafari' Kutchi, I can ask him for more information on all their history.

    All these groups are so much more Sindhi-shifted to the point that I feel calling it "Sindhi-shifted" isn't accurate. It is just that there are parts of the Rann of Kutch and Gujarat in general that just genetically very similar to the rest of Sindh. It think it is more accurate to look at it like this: various groups in Gujarat and Sindh are equally West-Asian shifted.
    Fair point. I don't think Sindhi-shifted is the appropriate term either. They're all of Lohana origin no? Hindu Lohanas whether Gujarati/Sindhi or Muslim Lohanas such as Khoja/Memons? Although, I don't think it's inaccurate to say they're all ultimately of Lohana origin and at some point can trace their origin back to the Lohana community of Sindh regardless of whether they identify as Gujarati or Sindhi today.

    I'd also differentiate them from modern day Muslim Sindhis living in Pakistan like the HGDP Sindhi of which some are especially Baloch shifted and less Steppe shifted (in contrast to some Lohana). It kind of makes the term Sindhi-shifted moot since not all Sindhi have the same ancestry or West Asian/Steppe shift. A Baloch shifted Muslim Sindhi would score rather distinctly than a more Steppe shifted Hindu Sindhi (Lohana or otherwise).
    Last edited by Sapporo; 09-14-2017 at 10:08 AM.

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