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Thread: Is it possible to not inherit certain admixtures?(Lebanon specific)

  1. #1
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    Is it possible to not inherit certain admixtures?(Lebanon specific)

    In Lebanon their has traditionally been a lot of talk on people having admixture from the European Crusaders who ruled over my area in Lebanon (Batroun-Byblos-Mount Lebanon region) for about 200 years. Of course the reality is that it is very exaggerated but my question is could it really possible to not inherit certain "ethnic" admixtures over the course of time?

    Here is my reasoning, it is probably very stupid but only people on this forum could probably answer it.

    Some of my close family do not look very Levantine or "Middle Eastern". In fact they could pass for someone of Western European origin. I myself for one had blonde hair for quite a few years , My Grandmother had redish hair and very fair skin, both of my great grand fathers were blonde with blue eyes, my uncle has green eyes and looks very similar to my grandmother, then cousins ect.. ect.. On my DNA tests across the board I did not get any results from Europe except Italy(but that component is not even sure to even represent italy). Furthermore, I remember after sharing my Gedmatch and GenePlaza results most experts on here said that according to these results I am roughly around 90% of Phoenician/Caananite origin. Considering it's pretty much established that these people(Phoenicians) looked like your typical Eastern med/Levant type how can many of members of my immediate family not fit in to that category and yet the DNA results I get pretty much do not yield any results from a region of the world that these physical appearance originate from.

    The Crusaders are the only ones I could think of that could have had a significant role is "bringing" such phenotypes to my region and specifically my community. So basically did I not inherit DNA that could have explained this or is their something else going on?

    PS: Forgive me if I do not construct my paragraphs well my English grammar still needs improvement

    Thanks guys!
    Last edited by Batroun; 09-10-2017 at 11:38 PM.

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  3. #2
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    My half-sister has roots in Marj-Ayoun, Nabatiyeh in Southern Lebanon. After testing with 23andMe, we discovered a close cousin whose family had immigrated to Brazil. My half-sister has very little Middle Eastern genes yet she shares a great deal of DNA with this cousin and its European DNA. Their only known connection is the family in Marj-Ayoun. Although her grandfather was only half Lebanese, to my untrained eye he appeared very phenotypically Middle Eastern. We have speculated that perhaps they were descendants of Circassian troops stationed at a nearby castle in Ottoman times?

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    Phenotypes are, generally-speaking, very unreliable and unstable indicators of ancestry. A Northern European-looking person in Lebanon might not necessarily owe his traits to Crusaders, such a person is equally likely to owe them to the Proto-Indo-Iranians from which the Mitannians were descended for example (I think at least some of the steppe ancestry in Lebanon can be attributed to them), all the more so considering the fact that Sintashta was not all that different from modern-day Eastern Europeans. Take our common Y-DNA haplogroup, if we go off the results of Fu et al. 2016 the oldest J1 individual (Satsurblia) had light skin and light eyes, nowadays J1 reaches some of its highest frequencies in Sudan, among people who do not have much in common with Satsurblia physically-speaking, the same observation could be made for other J1-rich populations with much higher amounts of CHG-type ancestry in fact.

    Italian ancestry is a tougher nut to crack as we're arguably dealing with one of the most diverse countries in Europe, if not the most diverse. Sardinians are virtually identical to Neolithic farmers, Tuscans and other North Italians are similar to Mainland Greeks, Albanians Iberians and other populations from the Balkans (namely Macedonians, Bulgarians and Romanians) while South Italians are generally very similar to Maltese, Aegean, Cypriot and (Western) Jewish people as well as to the Mycenaeans, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Anatolians and Minoans, which makes them a rather poor example of a European population I might add. There's much to bet the Italian affinity here is with the latter group of Italians, who tend to be very similar to Jews (who themselves owe the majority of their ancestry to the Canaanites) and have a lot of Basal Eurasian ancestry (arguably the most prominent component among them).

    Your grammar is fine by the way.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 09-11-2017 at 01:47 AM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Phenotypes are, generally-speaking, very unreliable and unstable indicators of ancestry. A Northern European-looking person in Lebanon might not necessarily owe his traits to Crusaders, such a person is equally likely to owe them to the Proto-Indo-Iranians from which the Mitannians were descended for example (I think at least some of the steppe ancestry in Lebanon can be attributed to them), all the more so considering the fact that Sintashta was not all that different from modern-day Eastern Europeans. Take our common Y-DNA haplogroup, if we go off the results of Fu et al. 2016 the oldest J1 individual (Satsurblia) had light skin and light eyes, nowadays J1 reaches some of its highest frequencies in Sudan, among people who do not have much in common with Satsurblia physically-speaking, the same observation could be made for other J1-rich populations with much higher amounts of CHG-type ancestry in fact.

    Italian ancestry is a tougher nut to crack as we're arguably dealing with one of the most diverse countries in Europe, if not the most diverse. Sardinians are virtually identical to Neolithic farmers, Tuscans and other North Italians are similar to Mainland Greeks, Albanians Iberians and other populations from the Balkans (namely Macedonians, Bulgarians and Romanians) while South Italians are generally very similar to Maltese, Aegean, Cypriot and (Western) Jewish people as well as to the Mycenaeans, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Anatolians and Minoans, which makes them a rather poor example of a European population I might add. There's much to bet the Italian affinity here is with the latter group of Italians, who tend to be very similar to Jews (who themselves owe the majority of their ancestry to the Canaanites) and have a lot of Basal Eurasian ancestry (arguably the most prominent component among them).

    Your grammar is fine by the way.
    Fascinating! Thank you sir, your responses are always so interesting and good. I had actually thought about the whole Indo-European DNA in Lebanon but I thought no one even thought about that. Interestingly enough before DNA testing became commercialized like it is now many historians in Lebanon spoke of an indo-european influence on the people of Lebanon and specifically those in the Mountains. Im glad this is actually coming up scientifically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Take our common Y-DNA haplogroup, if we go off the results of Fu et al. 2016 the oldest J1 individual (Satsurblia) had light skin and light eyes, nowadays J1 reaches some of its highest frequencies in Sudan, among people who do not have much in common with Satsurblia physically-speaking, the same observation could be made for other J1-rich populations with much higher amounts of CHG-type ancestry in fact..
    Is it possible that the earliest J1/2 carriers had a fair share of "Northern European-looking" individuals?
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
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    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
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    “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Phenotypes are, generally-speaking, very unreliable and unstable indicators of ancestry. A Northern European-looking person in Lebanon might not necessarily owe his traits to Crusaders, such a person is equally likely to owe them to the Proto-Indo-Iranians from which the Mitannians were descended for example (I think at least some of the steppe ancestry in Lebanon can be attributed to them), all the more so considering the fact that Sintashta was not all that different from modern-day Eastern Europeans. Take our common Y-DNA haplogroup, if we go off the results of Fu et al. 2016 the oldest J1 individual (Satsurblia) had light skin and light eyes, nowadays J1 reaches some of its highest frequencies in Sudan, among people who do not have much in common with Satsurblia physically-speaking, the same observation could be made for other J1-rich populations with much higher amounts of CHG-type ancestry in fact.

    Italian ancestry is a tougher nut to crack as we're arguably dealing with one of the most diverse countries in Europe, if not the most diverse. Sardinians are virtually identical to Neolithic farmers, Tuscans and other North Italians are similar to Mainland Greeks, Albanians Iberians and other populations from the Balkans (namely Macedonians, Bulgarians and Romanians) while South Italians are generally very similar to Maltese, Aegean, Cypriot and (Western) Jewish people as well as to the Mycenaeans, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age Anatolians and Minoans, which makes them a rather poor example of a European population I might add. There's much to bet the Italian affinity here is with the latter group of Italians, who tend to be very similar to Jews (who themselves owe the majority of their ancestry to the Canaanites) and have a lot of Basal Eurasian ancestry (arguably the most prominent component among them).

    Your grammar is fine by the way.
    I forgot to ask you sir,

    is their any further reading I can do on a general Indo-Iranian genetic influence in the Levant area?

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    According to some sources I have seen, there may be minor Western European (likely Norman, French, British) ancestry in the Lebanese but it'd be low (maybe 5% of y-dna lines and even less of the mtdna). While GEDMatch admixture averages would suggest this is higher in Muslims, studies I have seen found the y-dna signal more in the Christians, so at this point I have no idea which group should have more of it. I do see some Lebanese who look strikingly Western European (French, North Italian, British sort of look) but they are not that common.

    I notice in the west we tend to view some Levantine appearances as "European" because we are accustomed to seeing similar appearance in southern Italians or Ashkenazim who make up many of the "darker" white people in the US, but the similarities are due to the Levantine affinities of those groups and not the reverse. I often have trouble distinguishing southern Italians from the less Arabian-looking Levantines, though not everyone will have this sort of look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    According to some sources I have seen, there may be minor Western European (likely Norman, French, British) ancestry in the Lebanese but it'd be low (maybe 5% of y-dna lines and even less of the mtdna). While GEDMatch admixture averages would suggest this is higher in Muslims, studies I have seen found the y-dna signal more in the Christians, so at this point I have no idea which group should have more of it. I do see some Lebanese who look strikingly Western European (French, North Italian, British sort of look) but they are not that common.

    I notice in the west we tend to view some Levantine appearances as "European" because we are accustomed to seeing similar appearance in southern Italians or Ashkenazim who make up many of the "darker" white people in the US, but the similarities are due to the Levantine affinities of those groups and not the reverse. I often have trouble distinguishing southern Italians from the less Arabian-looking Levantines, though not everyone will have this sort of look.
    Interesting, would be very cool if they widened their sample group of people and broke it down amongst region and religious groups. The Indo-Iranian theory interests me a lot because I wonder how these phenotypes were able to survive for so long since light eyes/hair tend to be more of a recessive trait(correct me if I am wrong). But then again, wouldn't Indo-Iranians mainly carry a haplogroup similar to yours or not? We Barely have any R1 in Lebanon. Agammenon did mention one of the earliest J1s didn't resemble most J1s today though..

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    Well Crusader influence or not, on Gedmatch Lebanese Muslims as a whole have the most European influence out of all Levantines, followed by Syrians, Lebanese Christians, Jordanians and Palestinians in that order. Unfortunately there's no specific study on that, but I would bet most of that European ancestry, as low as it is, is mostly concentrated and attributed to coastal Sunnis.. and Druzes to some extent, but not so much among Shias. Apart from that, a Cretan/Greek Muslim community was absorbed in Tripoli but I'm not sure if they had any impact overall.

    As for phenotypes, isn't the South popularly known as the 'lightest' region? I've always heard that.
    Last edited by jml; 09-14-2017 at 09:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jml View Post
    Well Crusader influence or not, on Gedmatch Lebanese Muslims as a whole have the most European influence out of all Levantines, followed by Syrians, Lebanese Christians, Jordanians and Palestinians in that order. Unfortunately there's no specific study on that, but I would bet most of that European ancestry, as low as it is, is mostly concentrated and attributed to coastal Sunnis.. and Druzes to some extent, but not so much among Shias. Apart from that, a Cretan/Greek Muslim community was absorbed in Tripoli but I'm not sure if they had any impact overall.

    As for phenotypes, isn't the South popularly known as the 'lightest' region? I've always heard that.
    As a whole region there's a common belief the south is because there are many villages, but their are also many villages in the north that are known for being of crusader descent due to the remnants of the crusaders fleeing into Mount Lebanon after the fall of Tripoli. To be honest I haven't seen one community have more at least regarding phenotypes(which is a bad indicator). In my opinion Sunnis from personal day to day experience seem to have the least but again im one person. I think testing a lot more people would make sense but our country is so unstable it would be hard to take on such large projects as we can't even excavate a lot of our ancient archaeological history...

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