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Thread: L513 line genealogies

  1. #1
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    L513 line genealogies

    Hi All,

    After a recent trip to Scotland to visit the old Pictish sites (!), and reading a bunch of stuff (including Tim Clarkson's excellent 'The Picts'), I've been getting more excited about the possible ancient lines which we might have represented in our HG.

    In the spirit of (fun) speculation, I was wondering if we could start a thread where we discuss which possible known historical lines could be in L513, given the new results coming in and the better picture that is emerging, combined with historical background info.

    For my tuppence worth, and since my line is A7/L193 within L513, here goes:

    Scottish lines in L193 seem to be pretty well-spread, but with hotspots in the SW, Perthshire and the western coastal areas. Not as specific to Pictland as other HG's, but no clear connection to Ireland, for example, like with M222.

    My best guess for this line so far is a Scotto/Pictish line from the west, which spread east. Earlier clades like S5668 seem to be further west, in Ireland and western Scotland, which would trace the line east into the later areas of L193 expansion. So perhaps this was found among the Scottish 'Cenela' of Dalriada.

    I'm putting my neck out, hopefully not putting my foot in my mouth, and looking forward to any other ideas...!

    Jon

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  3. #2
    I personal of the current belief that Scottish FGC13499 branch of L513 came from the Inner Hebrides and before that Ireland, i.e., the Airgiallan allies of Dal Riada.

    Working backward from A8 branch. The A8 branch is associated with families from Ayrshire:
    1. Clan Kennedys
    2. Clan Little.

    Looking at A3, which is older then A8 we have three lines under it:
    1. Clan Kennedys and Clan Little from Ayrshire
    2. Clan Vans from Wigtownshire
    3. Clan Glendinning from Dumfriesshire

    Ayrshire, Wigtownshire and Dumfriesshire were lands identified with those of the Gall-Goídil.

    Right now if you are A3 it looks like you trace from ancestors through Ayrshire and if you are A8 you probably will trace your ancestors through the lands of the Gall Gaidheil. (Both have no recent yDNA relationship with Clan MacKenzies.)

    Now for the parent of A3, i.e. L193, we have four separate line (all lines have to originate from one original location/person):
    1. The A8 population from the lands of the Gall Gaidheil
    2. Clan MacLean from the Isle of Mull
    3. Clan Drummonds from the parish of Drymen within Lennox
    4. Clan Elliots from Roxburghshire

    Have move from young to old: A3 is specific to Ayrshire, A8 to the lands of the Gall Gaidheil, and L193 which is spread from Mull to Loch Lomond to Galloway and to the Borders.

    Where did the L193 population come from? The parent to L193 is FGC13499, which we have two lines:
    1. The L193 population spread from Mull to Loch Lomond to Galloway and to the Borders
    2. Clan MacKenzies from lands of Wester Ross (formerly known as North Argyll) within the Lordship of the Isles.

    Where do these two branches intersect? Simple, within the lands associated with Lordship of the Isle or more precisely within the area of the Inner Hebrides.

    So hence the simplest explanation of the FGC13499 line is that it starts in the Inner Hebrides, with one branch (L193) successfully spreading south into what became southern Scotland.

    Looking at S5668 branch of FGC13499:
    1. Clan Mackenzie and the Clans that are L193+, possible originating from the Inner Hebrides.
    2. Maguires of Fermangh, a family associated with Airgialla

    Given Scottish history I believe the Scottish S5668+ families are Airgiallan allies of Dal Riada..., based on today's evidence.

    Bernard.

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  5. #3
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    Thanks for your thoughts Bernard. So according to your model, the Airgialla would have been present in Scotland as well as in Ireland, as per Ewan Campbell's hypothesis of an indigenous Gaelic population. Would these Scots have been members of the ruling Cenela of Dalriada, or in your theory, simply 'allies' of them?

    Some have also suggested Pictish origins for L193, but I agree, the west->east direction looks fairly convincing for the lines under S5668.

    Anyone have any other thoughts on this, or alternatives?

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  7. #4
    I want to add these three reference to Airgiallan forces in Scotland:

    7th century Senchus Fer nAlban “the armed muster of the Cinel Loarn was 700 men ; but it is of the Airgialla that the seventh hundred is.”

    U727.3 The encounter of Irros Foichnae between Selbach and the 'family' of Echaid, grandson of Domnall, in which some of the Airgialla fell.

    M835.15 Gofraidh, son of Fearghus, chief of Oirghialla, went to Alba, to strengthen the Dal Riada, at the request of Cinaeth, son of Ailpin.

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  9. #5
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    Great, thanks for the references Bernard. Just to play devil's advocate: but if the Airgialla were a predominantly Irish tribe (I'm not sure?); and L193 was carried by them, would we not see more L193 in modern Ireland?

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  11. #6
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    Jon, excellent topic for a thread!

    While I can't hazard a guess for S5668 and farther back my deep haplogroup leads back to MacIvers of Skye then the Isle of Lewis around 1600 AD. Hopefully this may be of use as your discussion continues...

    L513/DF1 > S5668 > A7 > Z21253 > S7834 > S7828 > BY11203 > BY11186 (about 320-550 years old)
    Estimated ancestry drawing on Living DNA and family history:
    English 36%, Scottish 24%, Irish 17%, Welsh 16%, German 4.5%, Scandinavian 1.3%, Netherlands 0.6%, French 0.6%

    Y-DNA leads to Isle of Skye then to Isle of Lewis, Scottish Highlands: R1b > M343 > L278 > L754 > L389 > P297 > M269 > L23 > L51 > L151/L11 > P312 > Z290 > L21/M529 > DF13 > L513/DF1 > S5668 > A7 > Z21253 > S7834 > S7828 > BY11203 > BY11186 (about 320-550 years old)

    MTDNA leads to Glamorganshire, South Wales: K1a4a1a1

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    Thanks for your input Robert! Great to hear from another S5668 guy with Hebridean ancestry

    I'm keen to get as much input on this topic as possible. I've seen similar threads for other HG's, so I wanted to see what we could come up with here, maybe even including actual historical lines, although I accept that at this stage that involves a lot of speculation. As I see it, the possible Scottish lines in A7/L193 could include some or other of:

    - Scotti (west of Scotland)
    - Picts (central, northern, eastern areas)
    - Britons (particularly the Clyde region)
    - Gall Gaidheal (Gaelic speaking groups in the Hebrides)
    - Airgialla (surnames in Ireland under S5668 fall into this grouping, and see Bernard's posts above)

    I almost hesitate to go any further, but I've been thinking about possible candidates for actual genealogical lines who could fit the bill for us, for example the line of the MacAlpin or the Cenel nGabrain, who came from the west and moved east. But I know there are competing HG's who claim Dalriadan ancestry, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone by being presumptuous. I just want to stimulate debate on the issue, and I'm glad you appreciate it! Looking forward to more input...

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  15. #8
    The Britons of Strathclyde are likely to be DF63, if is accepted that the MacFarlanes of Lenox are their descendants.
    I personally believe, given the results st hand that the Dal Riada are L1065+.

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    Since you mentioned the Airgialla, how about the Scottish link? I always thought the Airgialla were principally found in Ireland. But it seems that from your references there were Airgialla in amongst the Dalriadan tribes in Scotland as well. Can you or anyone else say any more on that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Thanks for your input Robert! Great to hear from another S5668 guy with Hebridean ancestry

    I'm keen to get as much input on this topic as possible. I've seen similar threads for other HG's, so I wanted to see what we could come up with here, maybe even including actual historical lines, although I accept that at this stage that involves a lot of speculation. As I see it, the possible Scottish lines in A7/L193 could include some or other of:

    - Scotti (west of Scotland)
    - Picts (central, northern, eastern areas)
    - Britons (particularly the Clyde region)
    - Gall Gaidheal (Gaelic speaking groups in the Hebrides)
    - Airgialla (surnames in Ireland under S5668 fall into this grouping, and see Bernard's posts above)

    I almost hesitate to go any further, but I've been thinking about possible candidates for actual genealogical lines who could fit the bill for us, for example the line of the MacAlpin or the Cenel nGabrain, who came from the west and moved east. But I know there are competing HG's who claim Dalriadan ancestry, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone by being presumptuous. I just want to stimulate debate on the issue, and I'm glad you appreciate it! Looking forward to more input...
    I recall that Wolfe, Fraser & others suggested that the Cruithni may have been the tribe that Ptolemy named 'Epidii', who possibly migrated from Kintyre to Ireland. The Cruithne king Fiachne bore an ethnonym denoting 'Britons'. In all these discussions it's worth remembering that Campbell, & many others, believe movement was from Argyll to Ulster & not vice-versa. If one believes the revisionists' version of events then the situation becomes a little clearer. L513 might fit neatly into that equation.
    Last edited by castle3; 09-10-2017 at 12:48 PM.

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