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Thread: Female exogamy & gene pool diversification at the transition from the Final Neolithic

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Not done that! A lot more work.

    What is the relationship between Lech Valley Bell Beakers and EBA sites? Are EBA more recent? Is BB followed by EBA or are they separate? Are BB and EBA archaeologically different?
    Yes BB is 245o - 2200 BC, and a kind of Central European "Copper age", but usually called Late / final Neolithic.

    EBA is Bronze Age propper. The transition is variable in various regions, but in Bavaria it's a smooth one, continuous culturally.

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  3. #22
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    we already have a paper of H mtdna from central europe in early neolitihic times

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2656

    I do not understand where people are taking this recent mtdna chit-chat

    European - 99.2%............Central Asian - 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .....T2b17.......1735 Porcellengo Veneto Italy
    Sons Mtdna .....K1a4 ...........1710 Carnic Alps

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, A339+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Can someone throw light on this? We're the mtDNA hqplogroups of the beaker folk in Lech the sorts that probably came from the steppes or not?
    The Steppe origin of most Mt lineages is unlikely.

    To make a comparison:

    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v6...tcallback=true
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/i...ppes-Pontiques (with figures)

    The consequence is clear: the Steppe component was mostly mediated by men.

    It doesn't mean necessarily that migration was only or primarly made by men, since you can explain such a scheme with another explanation, as some kind of polygamy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The Steppe origin of most Mt lineages is unlikely.

    To make a comparison:

    http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v6...tcallback=true
    http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/i...ppes-Pontiques (with figures)

    The consequence is clear: the Steppe component was mostly mediated by men.

    It doesn't mean necessarily that migration was only or primarly made by men, since you can explain such a scheme with another explanation, as some kind of polygamy.
    I am not sure how solid a statement you can make by going fron Mt unlikely being from the steppe to writting the consequence is clear.


    On May 10 of this year, discussing the Olalde paper http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962 and following updates, Bell Beaker Blogger made these pertinent comments that should be reconciled with this later paper and of course more upcoming published paper updates:



    (Update 3)
    "In central Europe, Steppe ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker Complex-associated individuals, contradicting initial suggestions of gene flow between these groups based on analysis of mtDNA and dental morphology"


    (Update 5)


    I'm looking at the mtdna of Beaker individuals. Excluding the questions traditionally circling H1, H3 and V, a lot of the rest of it looks surprisingly steppe-like.


    (Update 7)


    Looking a little closer at the Iberian remains/contexts associated with Beaker culture.


    First, it should be understood that the remains and contexts are what they are. Plus, even with messy and uncertain contexts, certain ancestry would or wouldn't be there, so this is not a criticism for including these particular remains. I'm bit surprised at how loose the connections seem between people who look like otherwise ordinary Neolithic Iberians and Beaker associated artifacts.


    In other words, these are mostly collective tombs and caves with complex and disturbed deposits.
    Here's a few of those and the identifications, the first two bolded are R1b with no steppe admixture, the second two are girls with steppe admixture)


    - Galeria da cisterna, tomb (I0839 and I0840)
    - Cova da Moura, cave (I4229)
    - Paris Steet, Barcelona (I0257, I0258, I0260, I0261, I0262, I0263, I0823, I0825, I0826 and I1553)
    - Arroyal I, Burgos (tomb Roy5 (I0462) girl with first steppe admixture in Iberia. Also (I0458, I0459, I0460, I0461)
    - Camino de las Yeseras (a flat head woman I4245)
    - I4247 (collective inhumation)
    - Camino del Molino, Caravaca de la Cruz (I0453)


    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co...hroughout.html
    Last edited by Isidro; 09-08-2017 at 11:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    . . .


    Looking a little closer at the Iberian remains/contexts associated with Beaker culture.


    First, it should be understood that the remains and contexts are what they are. Plus, even with messy and uncertain contexts, certain ancestry would or wouldn't be there, so this is not a criticism for including these particular remains. I'm bit surprised at how loose the connections seem between people who look like otherwise ordinary Neolithic Iberians and Beaker associated artifacts.


    In other words, these are mostly collective tombs and caves with complex and disturbed deposits.
    Here's a few of those and the identifications, the first two bolded are R1b with no steppe admixture . . .

    - Paris Steet, Barcelona (I0257 . . . I0261 . . .
    Those two sets of remains came from the same site. I0257 was R1b1, and I0261 was R1b1a xL23. Given that R1b-V88 has already been found in Neolithic Iberia along with I2a remains, the odds are pretty good that those two were R1b-V88. No need to tell you how long ago the P297+ line leading to R1b-L23 split from the P297- line leading to R1b-V88 or to point out that R1b-L23 has a strong correlation with steppe dna, while R1b-V88 does not.

    Non-Iberian Bell Beaker males are predominantly R1b-L23. Olalde et al found no R1b-L23 in early Iberian Bell Beaker.

    The idea that non-Iberian BB acquired its steppe dna mainly from CW females is fatuous. Bell Beaker was a steppe-derived, early Indo-European, kurgan culture, like Yamnaya and Corded Ware. There is just no way Neolithic farmers were converted to that sort of warlike, patriarchal lifestyle by their wives.

    As I have pointed out before, whichever side is the local part of patrilocal or matrilocal usually has the dominant culture. The idea that BB was created by fusing R1b Neolithic farmers with CW wives reverses all that. It has CW women going to live with their husbands' families and, rather than adopting the Neolithic farmer lifestyle, converting everyone around them to the Corded Ware lifestyle. Not likely.

    As Anthony points out in The Horse The Wheel and Language, brides who go to live with their husbands' families are so eager to please and so fearful of the consequences of stepping out of line that they become hyper-correct practitioners of their husband's culture. They aren't inclined to be social innovators.

    The whole notion that BB acquired its steppe dna via CW women is merely a transparent attempt to deny steppe ancestry to R1b-L51 at all costs.
    Last edited by rms2; 09-08-2017 at 12:52 PM.
     


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  11. #26
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    To add a comment. The decrease of Steppe derived mt haplogroups through time between Late Neolithic and EBA is backing a migration dominated by males. If autosomal Steppe admixture was mediated by CWC females, the level of Steppe admixture should have been lower in the Neolithic with an increase through time. This is the reverse.

    But you could answer that we don't look at the late BBs ethnogenesis, but how they evolved through time.

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    This is about MtDNA so the cadre (framework) of your comments about R1b is another attempt to derail a good thread with inconvenient truths, haven't you done enough damage in the past?. By the way I would prefer if you stop commenting on practically all my sporadic posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Those two sets of remains came from the same site. I0257 was R1b1, and I0261 was R1b1a xL23. Given that R1b-V88 has already been found in Neolithic Iberia along with I2a remains, the odds are pretty good that those two were R1b-V88. No need to tell you how long ago the P297+ line leading to R1b-L23 split from the P297- line leading to R1b-V88 or to point out that R1b-L23 has a strong correlation with steppe dna, while R1b-V88 does not.

    Non-Iberian Bell Beaker males are predominantly R1b-L23. Olalde et al found no R1b-L23 in early Iberian Bell Beaker.

    The idea that non-Iberian BB acquired its steppe dna mainly from CW females is fatuous. Bell Beaker was a steppe-derived, early Indo-European, kurgan culture, like Yamnaya and Corded Ware. There is just no way Neolithic farmers were converted to that sort of warlike, patriarchal lifestyle by their wives.

    As I have pointed out before, whichever side is the local part of patrilocal or matrilocal usually has the dominant culture. The idea that BB was created by fusing R1b Neolithic farmers with CW wives reverses all that. It has CW women going to live with their husbands' families and, rather than adopting the Neolithic farmer lifestyle, converting everyone around them to the Corded Ware lifestyle. Not likely.

    As Anthony points out in The Horse The Wheel and Language, brides who go to live with their husbands' families are so eager to please and so fearful of the consequences of stepping out of line that they become hyper-correct practitioners of their husband's culture. They aren't inclined to be social innovators.

    The whole notion that BB acquired its steppe dna via CW women is merely a transparent attempt to deny steppe ancestry to R1b-L51 at all costs.
    Last edited by Isidro; 09-08-2017 at 02:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    This is about MtDNA so the cadre (framework) of your comments about R1b is another attempt to derail a good thread with inconvenient truths, haven't you done enough damage in the past?.
    Really? Then why did you write the following?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro
    Here's a few of those and the identifications, the first two bolded are R1b with no steppe admixture, the second two are girls with steppe admixture)
    Were you talking about mtDNA haplogroup R1b? If so, you put the wrong samples in bold.

    Sorry if I am derailing threads with "inconvenient truths", but the only damage they do is to falsehoods and errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isidro View Post
    By the way I would prefer if you stop commenting on practically all my sporadic posts.
    I generally avoid commenting on your posts. But I will respond to whatever I want to respond to. You could always just stop posting altogether if it bothers you that much.
     


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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post



    The idea that non-Iberian BB acquired its steppe dna mainly from CW females is fatuous. Bell Beaker was a steppe-derived, early Indo-European, kurgan culture, like Yamnaya and Corded Ware. There is just no way Neolithic farmers were converted to that sort of warlike, patriarchal lifestyle by their wives.
    I dont think L51 is from italy or Iberia, or anything like that, but theoretically speaking, they did not require a transformation by their wives. Gimbutas' presents somewhat of a false dichotomy of wussy farmers and agressive pastoralists, at the social and economic scale. BB / CWC were neither nomads nor were MN Europeans "farmers". In fact, the earliest creators of single graves were MNE folk.
    The move toward social prestige, militarization and pastoralization was a process which began in 4500 BC, 1500 years before Yamnaya.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 09-08-2017 at 03:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    I dont think L51 is from italy or Iberia, or anything like that, but theoretically speaking, they did not require a transformation by their wives. . .
    Yes, they would have. What central European Neolithic farmer culture was already displaying kurgan type BB or CW traits and simply needed an injection of steppe dna from women to complete the picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Gimbutas' false dichotomy of wussy farmers and agressive pastoralists is just that - false - at the social and economic scale. BB / CWC were neither nomads nor were MN Europeans "farmers". In fact, the earliest creators of single graves were MNE folk . . .
    Says you.

    BB and CW were mobile pastoralists. You know as well as I do that single graves were not the only thing that distinguished them from Neolithic farmers.
    Last edited by rms2; 09-08-2017 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Error
     


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