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Thread: Female exogamy & gene pool diversification at the transition from the Final Neolithic

  1. #11
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    I'm somewhat disappointed with the study
    They could have resolved the final pieces of the puzzle with this microregion
    It has Late Neolithic , CWC , BB and EBA burials. Why not do a propper spread and propper genomes ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 09-06-2017 at 07:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    No. The Steppe admixture is around 30/40%.
    Steppe is c. 50% EHG and 50% CHG which means that on the basis of their mtDNA these Beakers should be c. 20% steppe. Therefore, we need more steppe yDNA input to bridge the gap.

    Some originally European hunter and farmer lineages in Lech Valley Beakers could be mediated by TRB, Corded Ware and GAC:
    U5a2b3 < U5a2b TRB Germany
    H1 < H1 TRB / H1 Lengyel Poland
    U4d3 TRB? < U4d Pitted Ware Sweden
    J1c3g < J1c3 Corded Ware Kunila Estonia
    J1c1b1a < J1c1b1a Corded Ware Esperstedt
    J1c2e < J1c2e Corded Ware Esperstedt < J1c2 LN Hungary Lengyel
    U5a1a1 < U5a1 Latvia Corded Ware Zvejnieki LN1
    U5b2b4 < U5b2b1 Globular Amphorae Poland
    Last edited by Kristiina; 09-06-2017 at 09:20 AM.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Steppe is c. 50% EHG and 50% CHG which means that on the basis of their mtDNA these Beakers should be c. 20% steppe. Therefore, we need more steppe yDNA input to bridge the gap.

    Some originally European hunter and farmer lineages in Lech Valley Beakers could be mediated by TRB, Corded Ware and GAC
    Exactl. Given that the focus is on the transition to EBA from BBs, and given what we know about late BBs from other studies, the males did have a good chunk of Steppe Admixture since the beginning. Moreover, if some females came from various places and cultures, others were locals. It means that females were diverse, with different genetic signatures, especially when considered their level of Steppe admixture, contrary to males, more homogeneous.

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    Interesting... are you all also checking if your own mt-dna was present? Alas, not this time.
    Ancestry (approx.):
    3/4 Dutch; 1/8 German+Belgian+French+English+Swiss; 1/16 Indonesian+Dutch Colonial; 3/64 Ashkenazi; 1/64 Sephardi.

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    Seems to be a lack of comment about the origins (farmer, WHG, steppe etc) of mtDNA. So (I am v poorly versed in mtDNA) what do the haplogroups of the women tell of their deeper origins as opposed to that snacpshot of time in the BB era in this area of Germany i.e. are these the kind of mtDNA lines that sound like they come from Neolithic European farmers of central Europe or do they indicate that the women were of steppe origin in their deeper ancestry? That is kind of important as its 99% certain the beaker yDNA was a new influx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I picked up only the mtDNA of Bell Beaker samples excluding EBA samples and found out that they are distributed as follows:
    U5b2a3 < Scotland Neolithic < Western hunter
    U5b2b3a < Neolithic Sardinia < European hunter
    U5b2b4 x2 < European hunter
    U5a2b3 x2 < TRB ? < European hunter
    U4d3 < Eastern European hunter
    U5a1a1 < Eastern European hunter
    H1 < Cardial Neolithic
    J1c + J1c3g < Cardial Neolithic
    J1c1b1a < Neolithic Europe
    J1c2 < LBKT Neolithic Europe
    T2b33 < Neolithic Europe
    K1a x2 > Balcan Neolithic < Balkan hunter
    K1a4a1 < Romania Eneolithic < Balkan hunter
    H15a1 < Corded Ware Eulau < Neolithic Armenia
    H2a1 < Armenia Chalcolithic

    In autosomal terms it gives the following result:
    WHG 6/19, c. 30%
    EHG 2/19, c. 10%
    EEF 9/19, c. 50%
    CHG 2/19, c. 10%

    Does this correspond to the autosomes of German Beakers?
    How does EBA compare ?

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Interesting... are you all also checking if your own mt-dna was present? Alas, not this time.
    Ha! Yes

    No J2a1a1 variants here. They show from Spain to Hungary in earlier periods:

    ID Population Site Date Sex Mt Hap Y Hap Cov. HG% ALD Ref
    GEN15a Baden Budakal´asz-Luppa cs´arda 3367–3103 M J2a1a1 G2a2b2a1a1c1a 1.66 10.9±1.7 22±9.2
    3.-K11 Iberia CA La Chabola de la Hechicera 3627–3363 F J2a1a1 .. 0.12 24.7±2.5 30±12
    LY.II.A.10.15067 Iberia CA Las Yurdinas II 3350–2750 F J2a1a1 .. 0.30 24.1±2.0 ±

    So J2a1a1 Baden population in Hungary appears (maybe) to be chronologically between the two Iberian samples. That's a decent walk/canoe trip.
    And then also:
    Google says La Chabola de la Hechicera is about a 20-hour walk, less than 100km, from Atapuerca, Burgos (where J2a1a1 [YDNA=G2a] shows up dated to 2880-2630 BC).

    From the 2014 paper that reported the burial data:
    mtDNA in a recently excavated population from El Mirador cave in Atapuerca, Spain. This site is contemporaneous to the Bell Beaker culture (BBC) but does not carry the diagnostic items of this culture that include the distinctive bell-shaped ceramics and weapons. In fact, the archaeological sites with Bell Beaker remains are very scarce in the Meseta Central of the Iberian Peninsula.
    R1b (aka M343) > M269 > L23 > L51 > L11 > P312 > DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 > Z17112 (S17075-, L644-)

    Archaeological cousin: 6DRIF-23 of Driffield Terrace Roman Cemetery, York (Z17112+, S17075+, L644-)

    Known ancestors: Francis Cooke (I-M223/I2a2a) b. 1583; John Wing (U106) b. 1584; Richard Warren (M269Hidden Content ) b.c. 1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b. 1583; John Mead b.c. 1634 (I2a1/P37.2)

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Seems to be a lack of comment about the origins (farmer, WHG, steppe etc) of mtDNA. So (I am v poorly versed in mtDNA) what do the haplogroups of the women tell of their deeper origins as opposed to that snacpshot of time in the BB era in this area of Germany i.e. are these the kind of mtDNA lines that sound like they come from Neolithic European farmers of central Europe or do they indicate that the women were of steppe origin in their deeper ancestry? That is kind of important as its 99% certain the beaker yDNA was a new influx.
    Can someone throw light on this? We're the mtDNA hqplogroups of the beaker folk in Lech the sorts that probably came from the steppes or not?

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    How does EBA compare ?
    Not done that! A lot more work.

    What is the relationship between Lech Valley Bell Beakers and EBA sites? Are EBA more recent? Is BB followed by EBA or are they separate? Are BB and EBA archaeologically different?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Seems to be a lack of comment about the origins (farmer, WHG, steppe etc) of mtDNA. So (I am v poorly versed in mtDNA) what do the haplogroups of the women tell of their deeper origins as opposed to that snacpshot of time in the BB era in this area of Germany i.e. are these the kind of mtDNA lines that sound like they come from Neolithic European farmers of central Europe or do they indicate that the women were of steppe origin in their deeper ancestry? That is kind of important as its 99% certain the beaker yDNA was a new influx.
    My list is based on all ancient mtDNA we currently have. If I note "Western hunter", it means that the mtDNa concerned has been detected in a Mesolithic or earlier WHG context. Among these Lech Valley Beaker mtDNAs, there is not so much steppe. One out of eighteen is U5a1a1, which is frequent on the steppe. H15a1 and H2a1 are also frequent on the steppe and they seem originally CHG haplogroups from the Caucasus/Caspian region. U4d3 could be from Northeastern Europe/Scandinavia.

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