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Thread: The Iceni Thread

  1. #11
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    Fascinating thread! My maternal grandfather's paternal line (he was R1b-U152) is from Coney Weston, now in NW Suffolk, a village which lies in the vicinity of what once was Iceni territory. The high density of torque finds is especially interesting IMO, any explanation as to why this is the case? Ironically enough, I've always been strangely interested in torques (bought a torque bracelet in Holy Island/Lindisfarne when I was 13 years old for example, still have it with me).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #12
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    Before I go on deeper, I need to explain what "Breckland" or "the Brecks" are. It's an area of South west Norfolk, and a chunk of neighbouring North west Suffolk, where the soils are very, very sandy. Sandwiched between the peat wetlands of the English Fens, and the heavy boulder-clay soils of the East Anglian plateau. Breckland's soils are sandy and excessively drained. Agriculture, and settlement concentrates in the shallower soils of the river valleys, or in the west, along the Fen-edge. I feel the need to give a little bit of topographical background, because it's a key area for the Iceni. The most recent summaries suggest that Iron Age farmers in East Anglia, were at first concentrated here, before eventually spreading eastwards onto the heavier clay soils. It remained an area of importance. The only Iron Age "hill fort" enclosure in East Anglia outside of NW Norfolk, was in the centre of Breckland at Thetford, where a prehistoric route, the Icknield Way, crossed the shallows of the Little Ouse, close to a tributary. Not only that, but there are two interesting square enclosures in the Thetford area - I'll get onto those shortly.

    @Agamemnon. I know Coney Weston well. It's on the edge of Breckland, very much into that portion of NW Suffolk that was Iceni. Continuing on from the Davies, Williamson etal book 1998, they examined the distribution metal finds in the area. Torcs are concentrated close to the Fen edge in Western, particularly NW Norfolk. Terrets are scattered all over Norfolk. But the types of terrets look regionalised. 'Knobbed' and 'Lipped' types in the west, 'Simple' terrets in the south, 'Mini' terrets in the south and east.

    There are patterns to where the different coin obverses are scattered, but it's complex. Gold coins were slightly concentrated in the north west but almost not at all in the South west (Breckland). Silver coins, 'Bury' types found in the south, 'Boar-horses' in the south, Face-horses all over except the north west. That gold coins tend to be a little earlier, made up to 40 BC, and silver later, could indicate that the power base was moving out of NW Norfolk, across the region. What does Davies have to say about it?

    "The evidence outlined above appears to indicate diverse behaviour by some groups occupying different regions of Norfolk for the whole of the Iron Age. Yet more order and coherence emerges when a tighter chronological framework is applied. In the Early Iron Age, occupation seems to have been concentrated in the Breckland and Fen-edge of south-west Norfolk. By the 1st century BC, Snettisham in the north west, had become a focus of artefact deposition: the Snettisham torcs have been dated to the first half of the 1st century BC (Stead 1991). The gold coin hoards from north-west Norfolk, in contrast, date from the middle of the 1st century BC. The absence of gold coins, and the presence of later silver coin hoards and artefacts, at the Breckland sites of Thetford and Saham Toney/Ashill suggest that this area became prominent some what later, perhaps replacing Snettisham as a major tribal centre during the later 1st century BC. The prominence of 'Pattern-Horse' coins at Caister St Edmund, and the lower percentages of 'Face-Horse' and 'Boar-Horse' varieties recovered from here, suggests that this site came to prominence later still, during the 1st century AD.".

    The book also explores the Iron Age enclosures of Norfolk. Tasburgh has been dismissed as Iron Age, dating much later to Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Danish. That leaves the four "hill forts" of North west and Western Norfolk, close to the Wash, and Thetford, down in south-west Norfolk (Breckland). However, there is another type of enclosure in Norfolk, dated to the Iron Age. These usually only survive as crop or soil marks. The "hill forts" are rounded or oval. These field marks are square or rectangular! The suggestion is that these shallower rectangular enclosures had very different purposes to the hill fort type enclosures, and may have had ritual uses. They are found in North, West, and South west Norfolk, and north west Suffolk (Breckland). Davies makes a rare association with a Continental class of Iron Age earthwork, known as Vierecksshanzen. Possibly belonging to this group is the Fison Way site at Gallows Hill, Thetford. This was a very late, magnificant, multiple ditched square enclosure with central buildings, one of which could have had more than one level. There is evidence that it was purposely destroyed after the Boudican Revolt during the second half of the 1st century AD. Square enclosures on the Continent in the Cologne Basin, Moselle, and in the Champagne regions, were used as burial enclosures. Fison Way could also relate to a rectangular enclosure, found on the opposite ridge of the Little Ouse valley, at Barnham in Suffolk. This has been dated to Middle Iron Age.



    Now Oppida Those sprawling Late Iron Age settlement and activity sites most famously represented by the oppida in Essex, close to Colchester. My other, earlier text books have stated that no oppida have been found associated with the Iceni lands. However, largely through coin and artifact survey - several have now been proposed, including at Saham Toney, Thetford, and finally, Caister St Edmund, where the Roman authorities laid down the foundations of the town of Venta Icenorum.

    Last edited by A Norfolk L-M20; 09-04-2017 at 06:51 PM.
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  5. #13
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    Finished reading through a series of essays in later chapters. More settlement has been detected from the Iron Age in Norfolk. Rescue archaeological digs of two Early Bronze Age round barrows that were going to be destroyed by the Norwich Bypass road development, revealed SE facing Iron Age round houses in between them, apparently respecting the earlier mounds in their boundaries. A number of four poster features have been discovered at numerous sites, of unknown use. A favoured suggestion is raised granary buildings. At a rescue dig at the Wymondham bypass road development, a site already recorded through field-walking (Iron Age pottery and burnt flint scatter), revealed a multiple industry site, with pits accredited to softening bones, antler, and horn for processing as raw material, and a lot of flint knapping. The site serves to remind us that flint tools and use did not end with the discovery of metal-working. Something that I was always aware of when I use to survey worked flint scatters in Thetford Forest. In another essay, two parishes were fieldwalked for Iron Age potsherds. The parish in west Norfolk, between the North-West Norfolk and Breckland Iron Age hot spots produced far more clusters indicating settlement, than did the parish, further to the east on the clay soils.

    A Gallo-Roman dated shipwreck off the coast of Armorica, France, produced 271 lead ingots. Most were stamped with BRIGANTES, but five were stamped with ICENES or similar. They appeared to be on their way from those Roman civitas in Eastern Britain. That suggests that they were being marketed in Northern East Anglia perhaps for roof tile manufacture, but as the region doesn't have local lead, it suggests middle man trading. "Whatever the case, this may have been a well-established trade route with antecedents in the Iron Age - perhaps some of the silver in Icenian coins came from similar ingots from the Continent or Britain.". Chapter 7. Tasking the Iron Age: the Iceni and Minting. Amanda Chadburn.

    In summary from all of this book reading.

    It's said in British Archaeology, that the Bronze Age is full of Death, and the Iron Age of living. That is to say, that a large amount of British Bronze Age archaeology revolves around burial and cemetery practices, and there use to be a dearth of evidence of how people lived. The Iron Age, the opposite. Lots of evidence of enclosures, round houses, and of settlement, but human remains are not often found. The suggestion is that common British Iron Age funerary practices may have involved cremation or exposure of corpses to the elements. Therefore we should be a little wary of ancient DNA from the British Iron Age, because burial may not have been the norm, and some of those buried may not be the norm for the regions. The unusual exceptions include the Hinxton cemetery near to Cambridge, and the Arras barrow burials of East Yorkshire. The Arras burials are often regarded as the best evidence of contact with La Tène cultures in France, and possibly of migration. These cemeteries though are both unusual.

    R. Rainbird Clarke, coming from the older generation of British archaeologist, was full of certainty of Iron Age invasions and migration from various areas of the Continent. Even though he had much less evidence than later generations, he clearly sees three major migration events during the Iron age, and with certainty, ascribes the Continental origins of each invader.

    Later British archaeologists looking at the Northern East Anglian Iron Age, rarely venture to even compare local evidence with that on the Continent. They objectively focus only on the evidence that they can see in local terms. There are mentions of La Tène styles of metal work, but only as an art form. There was a brief comparison of Norfolk's square enclosures with a class associated with burial, on the Continent. It's not so much that they don't say that migration was a possible feature into the area, only that the evidence that they have doesn't necessarily have to involve it, therefore it isn't discussed. I think that this will be the job of ancient DNA studies in the future. We feel pretty confident that recent generations of British archaeologists got it wrong with the origins of the Bell Beaker people - that there was a very significant immigration event involved there. However, we know less about the population genetics of Britain between the Bell Beaker, and the Anglo-Saxon migration events.

    This brings me to the Schiffels, Haak, etal study 2016:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408

    The Hinxton Rings Iron Age cemetery is unusual. It doesn't really follow funerary conventions in Eastern England, so it is possible, that it's DNA isn't completely representative of all Iron Age populations in SE England. It's an unusual site. Delineated inhumations from the 1st century BC, surrounded by an large ring ditch. The Iron Age samples from Hinxton (including one from nearby Linton) consisted of four females, and two males. Male 1. Y-DNA was was R1b1a2a1a2c1 with CTS241/DF13/S521+ according to Jean Manco's excellent Ancient DNA reference web pages, while Male 2 was R1b1a2a1a2c with L21/M529/S145+, S461/Z290+. That's all that we have for Iron Age Y-DNA in England.

    The POBI 2015, mentioned something else on Page 5. "A subsequent migration, best captured by FRA17 (France), contributed a substantial amount of ancestry to the UK outside Wales. Although we cannot formally exclude this being part of the Saxon migration, this seems unlikely (see Methods) and instead it might represent movement of people taking place between the early migrations and those known from historical records.". Garrett Hellenthal, on the Youtube presentation said that there was a pattern found both in England, and Scotland, that relates to France, but appears to predate the Anglo-Saxon:



    36 minutes 20 seconds.

    What else can I conclude from my venture into Iceni lands?

    They may have had a federal nature, coming together in times of stress, such as those presented by Roman contact. Their territory consisted roughly of northern East Anglia, including Norfolk, and at times NW Suffolk and NE Cambridgeshire. However, Western Norfolk, from the hill fort style enclosures, and Snettisham hoards of NW Norfolk, down along the Fen edge down to Breckland, was important to them, and often a focal point. Earlier Iron Age settlement was concentrated there. Focus areas with in this western band include Thetford, Snettisham, Warham, and Saham Toney. I don't think that it was any accident, that after the Boadican Rebellion, that a major military road was built right through the length of this western zone - the Peddar's Way. However, during the Later Iron Age, settlement did spread westwards, and increase across Norfolk, even on the heavier clay lands of the interior (East Anglian boulder clay plateau). A late focus may have existed at an area of eastern Norfolk, south of medieval Norwich, close to the meeting of river tributaries, where there had been an earlier Neolithic and Bronze Age focus. It was here that the Romans built Venta Icenorum.

    They were a distinct culture, even with some local variation within. Most of their known settlements, consisted of small farmsteads of south east facing porch round-houses. Unusually open, unenclosed, no archaeological evidence of ring ditches, banks, or defenses. They could have had defenses that left no archaeology. Their pottery was mainly plain, and simple hand made without a wheel, unlike that of their Trinovante neighbours.

    Horsemanship was very important to them culturally, as was chariot fighting war tactics. Economically, they were mainly agrarian farmers of wheat and barley, but sheep may have at times played an important part in the economy. They often produced a surplus, which was at times traded for metals. Metal work of the Late Iron Age often featured La Tène styles of art.

    A few photos that I took years ago, of the modern landscape from the Peddars Way trail in West Norfolk:

















    Last edited by A Norfolk L-M20; 09-05-2017 at 05:00 PM.
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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeWhalen View Post
    excellent info well presented is always welcome, imho

    I too love the pics, especially of the huge torcs...how that must of felt and looked, walking into the meeting hall with that around your neck!

    Mike
    Yeah, I vacillate between thinking "Those look really cool" and "I wonder if I'd go crazy wearing that all the time"

    I guess one would get used to it.
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    Archaeological cousin: 6DRIF-23 of Driffield Terrace Roman Cemetery, York (Z17112+, S17075+, L644-)

    Known ancestors: Francis Cooke (I-M223/I2a2a) b. 1583; John Wing (U106) b. 1584; Richard Warren (M269Hidden Content ) b.c. 1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b. 1583; John Mead b.c. 1634 (I2a1/P37.2)

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Norfolk L-M20 View Post
    I hope that I'm not contradicting the rules of the forum by using this thread as an open note book, but all contributions are welcome, particularly any references to the population genetics angle.
    Family fun with ancient history and updates on DNA in Hinxton
    http://www.saffronwaldenreporter.co....xton-1-5232455

    Families can learn more about the people who lived on the banks of the River Cam thousands of years ago, and about the latest reseach on DNA during half-term at the Wellcome Genome Campus Conference Centre in Hinxton.

    On Saturday, October 21 from noon to 4pm, there will be a family fun day at the Campus’ Hidden Lives exhibition. Children can dig for artefacts like an archaeologist, extract DNA from fruit, and find out about the people who lived in our area thousands of years ago.

    The Hidden Lives exhibition displays the remains of people living on the banks of the River Cam thousands of years ago.

    The exhibition shows what genetic analysis revealed about the population of the East of England in the Iron Age and Anglo-Saxon period and what this tells us about the population today.

    Entry is free but booking is required online at bit.ly/hidden-lives. The Hidden Lives exhibition runs until December.

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  11. #16
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    Hi Norfolk, are there indications how long the Brythonic language survived in the territory of the Iceni? Over the years I have come across writings that it might have survived in isolated places in the Fen lands.
    Was just looking for some info, and came across these stories, could be an interesting read if nothing more.
    http://www.cantab.net/users/michael...._survival.html
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  13. #17
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    Speaking of Coney Weston, I've seen some people claim that Bill Gates is the descendant of a man called Eustace Gates and that he carries Y-DNA haplogroup I2a2a-M284, we have a person in the East Anglian FTDNA project who fits that description (also carries Y-DNA haplogroup I2a2a-Y3713), this person claims descent from a Eustace Gates who apparently lived in Coney Weston during the 16th century. Just a rumour, but I naturally find this quite amusing since I noticed that kit several years ago when I was trying to uncover my maternal grandfather's Y-DNA lineage, it naturally caught my eye since it's the only sample we have from Coney Weston.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    Hi Norfolk, are there indications how long the Brythonic language survived in the territory of the Iceni? Over the years I have come across writings that it might have survived in isolated places in the Fen lands.
    Was just looking for some info, and came across these stories, could be an interesting read if nothing more.
    http://www.cantab.net/users/michael...._survival.html
    Brythonic fared rather poorly in East Anglia, in fact East Anglia can easily claim to be one of the very first places where Old English was spoken. Apart from a handful of hydronyms and toponyms, the place names have reliable Germanic etymologies. Brythonic is unlikely to have survived in the Fens, this is a bogus claim quite frankly. That being said, I'd surmise that the Iceni didn't just vanish, East Anglians certainly seem to owe large chunks of ancestry to them.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 10-14-2017 at 11:29 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    That being said, I'd surmise that the Iceni didn't just vanish, East Anglians certainly seem to owe large chunks of ancestry to them.
    What is the evidence for this? The problem of deductions from modern DNA alone is that people have moved around since the Anglo-Saxon advent. Huge numbers of people from the Celtic fringe came to work in England, both in the industrial cities and on the land as agricutural labourers. The latter happened in the Middle Ages (perhaps mainly on a seasonal basis) even before the industrial revolution sucked people off the land into the factories.
    Last edited by Jean M; 10-15-2017 at 10:43 AM.

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    What is the evidence for this? The problem of deductions from modern DNA alone is that people have moved around since the Anglo-Saxon advent. Huge numbers of people from the Celtic fringe came to work in England, both in the industrial cities and on the land as agricutural labourers. The latter happened in the Middle Ages (perhaps mainly on a seasonal basis) even before the industrial revolution sucked people off the land into the factories.
    You are quite right in advising caution when it comes to drawing conclusions from modern DNA, you are also right about the later arrivals from the Celtic fringe (I am no exception, my grandfather was 1/4 Welsh himself). Nevertheless, we should also be careful not to overestimate the genetic impact of the migrants from Celtic fringe, I very much doubt that there was a wholesale population replacement in East Anglia for instance. If the Iron Age samples we have so far resemble East Anglia's pre-Anglo-Saxon and pre-Roman population (which is extremely likely to be the case) then it is wise to assume that present-day East Anglians do owe significant chunks of ancestry to them (if not the majority of their ancestry for that matter).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I very much doubt that there was a wholesale population replacement in East Anglia for instance.
    I'm certainly not proposing that! I feel that East Anglia today most probably has the highest proportion of Anglo-Saxon ancestry in England, though other areas in Eastern England could also score highly. Where I am unwilling to guess is on the question of which Celtic tribes furnished the majority of Brittonic wives/slaves of the East Angles. I'm not sure that we are going to be able to work it out from ancient DNA either.

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