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Thread: Kurdish people of Northernmesopotamia admixed?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jesus View Post
    Proto Kurds probably lived in that region since Median times.
    And? The sun is hot

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by technetium View Post
    No, this is what I explained prior. Assyrians are not clustering with Arabians. You might think that both are considered "Semitic", however genetically Assyrians are basically South Caucasians who cluster close to Armenians and even Kurds. Here look at this PCA:
    Attachment 18058

    I do not care about what Kurds identify and I won“t be the guy who will change it. I made the example with the Bekiris and basically they know that this tribe named the town of Diyarbakir and that its origins are Arab, but nothing more (they do not claim this for prestige or oral tradition). They know about their origins up until modern-days, so somebody listening to you could assume that the Bakr tribe was just swallowed away by the ground which is completely untrue. I am also sure that they (for example the Bekiris of Mus) switched to the Kurdish language recently (a few centuries ago) because side branches of them are still speaking Arabic.
    Fair enough. Still needs more samples though.

    The Marwanids followed. Their ancestry is also highly discussed, some say they were Arabs others say they were Kurds. The Ayyubids followed and they also were a culturally Arab state and had basically nothing to do with Kurds. The Aq Qoyunlu Turkics also were a famous state of the region and basically the complete adminstration of that state was Arabic/Arab (no Kurds or similar). You are clearly underestimating the influence of the Arabs in the region.
    No, the Marwanids rose under Badh the Kurd, a member of the Humaydi Kurds. The reason some think these Marwanids were Arab is because they confuse them with the Arab Marwanids of the Umayyads. The Ayyubids had many ties to the Kurdish and Iranic world, and the Ayyubid army's elite consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, certain Kurds were some of Saladin's closest allies, Kurdish quarters in cities, Kurdish governors all throughout the Levant, significant Kurdish presence in the madrasahs etc. And the Turkic Aq Qoyunlu were Persianate, not Arabophone, and notable families were often rather Iranian than Arab. Amed and Mardin had governors from the leading Turkic family, yet the towns around Amed were held by Kurdish tribes. Chermik, Hazro, Egil, Hasankeyf, Mayyafariqin (Silvan) were held by Zraqi, Mardasi, Suleymani and Ayyubid Kurds. Amed moreover became the administrative center for the Kurdish regions with far-reaching autonomy under the Ottomans, though its governor was appointed.

    Therefore, I don't believe I'm underestimating the Arabs in the region, they had a far more significant presence further west and east.

    I do not believe that this man is an outlier since my speculations started with the different looks of many Kurds of Amida compared to Iraqi Kurds (look at the pictures and now tell me they look same, they do not).

    Anyway, I think there is no point in discussing around. What I had to say is said and the results are above.
    Phenotypes are tricky, at times one sees what they want to see. Besides, the phenotypes in many Kurdish regions differ, this isn't unusual, but Amed Kurds don't look more Arab to me.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Znertu View Post
    Fair enough. Still needs more samples though.



    No, the Marwanids rose under Badh the Kurd, a member of the Humaydi Kurds. The reason some think these Marwanids were Arab is because they confuse them with the Arab Marwanids of the Umayyads. The Ayyubids had many ties to the Kurdish and Iranic world, and the Ayyubid army's elite consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, certain Kurds were some of Saladin's closest allies, Kurdish quarters in cities, Kurdish governors all throughout the Levant, significant Kurdish presence in the madrasahs etc. And the Turkic Aq Qoyunlu were Persianate, not Arabophone, and notable families were often rather Iranian than Arab. Amed and Mardin had governors from the leading Turkic family, yet the towns around Amed were held by Kurdish tribes. Chermik, Hazro, Egil, Hasankeyf, Mayyafariqin (Silvan) were held by Zraqi, Mardasi, Suleymani and Ayyubid Kurds. Amed moreover became the administrative center for the Kurdish regions with far-reaching autonomy under the Ottomans, though its governor was appointed.

    Therefore, I don't believe I'm underestimating the Arabs in the region, they had a far more significant presence further west and east.



    Phenotypes are tricky, at times one sees what they want to see. Besides, the phenotypes in many Kurdish regions differ, this isn't unusual, but Amed Kurds don't look more Arab to me.
    You make claims without any evidence. I did never claim that the Aq Qoyunlu were Arabs, nor Arab leaning (even though there would be some examples for that like the architecture). I said that the adminstration of the state was mostly Arab and sat inside of the town of Mardin. There were no illiterate Kurdish shepherds in the adminstration. The claim with the Ayyubids is not true and if you believe they were Kurdish/Iranic orientated then believe it. The Ayyubids even recruited out of the local Arab tribals, but I cannot currently post the book passages. Anyway, the actual topic was something else.
    Last edited by technetium; 08-14-2017 at 08:50 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by technetium View Post
    You make claims without any evidence. I did never claim that the Aq Qoyunlu were Arabs, nor Arab leaning (even though there would be some examples for that like the architecture). I said that the adminstration of the state was mostly Arab and sat inside of the town of Mardin. There were no illiterate Kurdish shepherds in the adminstration. The claim with the Ayyubids is not true and if you believe they were Kurdish/Iranic orientated then believe it. The Ayyubids even recruited out of the local Arab tribals, but I cannot currently post the book passages. Anyway, the actual topic was something else.
    I didn't say you said they were Arabs. Arab and Arabophone aren't the same. Many Turkic dynasties were Persianate, Persian was their court language and they held Persian/Iranic culture in high regard, just as the Aqqoyunlu. The Iranic influence among the Aqqoyunlu was far greater than that of the Arabs. However, if you say there were Arab administrators, fair enough (then again; genuine Arabs or Arabified Assyrians?).

    I said the Ayyubids' elite, its cavalry, consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, this is not a contested claim. Zarzari, Hakkari, Humaydi, Shahrazuri, Qaymari, Adawi were some of the prominent Kurdish tribes and communities. Some of the Ayyubids bore Iranic names, one of the members of the dynasty made a translation of the Shahnameh, the madrasas of the Levant saw a great influx of Kurdish scholars, Kurds served as qadis... Most of the governors in the Ayyubid empire were Kurds and Turks; next to the Ayyubids themselves (who governed many cities), Baalbek, Shayzar, Latakia, Hama etc. were governed by Kurds from other tribes. Under the Ayyubids there's also clear instances of Kurdish ethnic identity and solidarity.

    No doubt the empire as a whole was multiethnic and Islam was most important, but there's no doubt that the Kurdish influence was very strong. If you want to learn, read: Saladin et les Kurdes

    And it's certainly relevant to the topic. All you did was post the genetic results of a single person, some cherry-picked photos of Amed Kurds looking 'Arab', and an example of a tribe that's probably Arab-descended, complemented by falsified quotes and historical half-truths, in order to elevate the Arab influence in the region. Yes, there was and is an Arab presence, but there's nothing indicating that Amed Kurds as a whole have more than a sliver of Arab ancestry, and certainly not that it'd be any more than that of Armenians, Assyrians and Turks. There's also no reason to generalize the Kurds (certainly not as late as the 14th century) as mere illiterate shepherds.

  5. #15
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    At least, I know some Kurds who accept that they were Arabs but Kurdificated.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Eetion View Post
    At least, I know some Kurds who accept that they were Arabs but Kurdificated.
    Yes, that is true. I made the example with the Bekiri tribe which nowadays speak Kurdish, but they still know of the origins of their tribe. Side branches of them still speak Arabic.

    I have some more potential candidates who show an Arab shift from Eastern Turkey. However I am currently literally in the valleys of the Diyar Bakr and am unable to inform myself what their backgrounds are.
    Last edited by technetium; 08-16-2017 at 08:10 PM.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Znertu View Post
    I didn't say you said they were Arabs. Arab and Arabophone aren't the same. Many Turkic dynasties were Persianate, Persian was their court language and they held Persian/Iranic culture in high regard, just as the Aqqoyunlu. The Iranic influence among the Aqqoyunlu was far greater than that of the Arabs. However, if you say there were Arab administrators, fair enough (then again; genuine Arabs or Arabified Assyrians?).

    I said the Ayyubids' elite, its cavalry, consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, this is not a contested claim. Zarzari, Hakkari, Humaydi, Shahrazuri, Qaymari, Adawi were some of the prominent Kurdish tribes and communities. Some of the Ayyubids bore Iranic names, one of the members of the dynasty made a translation of the Shahnameh, the madrasas of the Levant saw a great influx of Kurdish scholars, Kurds served as qadis... Most of the governors in the Ayyubid empire were Kurds and Turks; next to the Ayyubids themselves (who governed many cities), Baalbek, Shayzar, Latakia, Hama etc. were governed by Kurds from other tribes. Under the Ayyubids there's also clear instances of Kurdish ethnic identity and solidarity.

    No doubt the empire as a whole was multiethnic and Islam was most important, but there's no doubt that the Kurdish influence was very strong. If you want to learn, read: Saladin et les Kurdes

    And it's certainly relevant to the topic. All you did was post the genetic results of a single person, some cherry-picked photos of Amed Kurds looking 'Arab', and an example of a tribe that's probably Arab-descended, complemented by falsified quotes and historical half-truths, in order to elevate the Arab influence in the region. Yes, there was and is an Arab presence, but there's nothing indicating that Amed Kurds as a whole have more than a sliver of Arab ancestry, and certainly not that it'd be any more than that of Armenians, Assyrians and Turks. There's also no reason to generalize the Kurds (certainly not as late as the 14th century) as mere illiterate shepherds.
    You take this too emotional and personal as that I would want to discuss this further. The Arab Adminstrators of the Aq Qoyunlu were descendants of the Arab settlers there. However the reason you mention this is obvious. What do you want to tell me with your "way more Iranic influence"? Then why did the Aq Qoyunlu not take the Kurdish educated upper class who according to you was always the majority and at the same time from the cultural spectrum (Iranic) the Aq Qoyunlu "loved so much"? Maybe because they were just pastoralists who marched according the seasons with their sheep through the region. Anyway, I do not want to discuss this further. All buildings built by the Aq Qoyunlu were nearly the same as the previous Arab Abbasid architecture of the region.

    Also I am currently not able to write replies where I answer to all of your mentioned things.
    Last edited by technetium; 08-16-2017 at 08:28 PM.

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