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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leroy Jenkins View Post
    Minoans are thought to be non-IE while Mycenaeans have long been linked to the arrival of Greek speakers. If Mycenaeans are similar to Minoans except that Mycenaeans carried ancestry related to EHG, then that supports a steppe origin for PIE, no?
    It seems kinda evident from the PCA too:

     


    The Minoans and Myceneans look barely differentiated but the small way in which they're differentiated is telling in that the Myceneans pull closer toward Europe_LNBA and company. One group is Greek-speaking and the other isn't and the Greek-speaking one pulls closer to groups like Europe_LNBA or England_ancient; that can't be a coincidence. They're basically the Minoans with some steppe admixture from the looks of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Especially considering that the Minoan period Cretan from Armenoi has more steppe than the Mycenaeans.
    The Cretan girl is from 1350 BCE so it should be during the Mycenaeans period, not the Minoan one. Notice the U5a mtdna .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    It seems kinda evident from the PCA too:

     


    The Minoans and Myceneans look barely differentiated but the small way in which they're differentiated is telling in that the Myceneans pull closer toward Europe_LNBA and company. One group is Greek-speaking and the other isn't and the Greek-speaking one pulls closer to groups like Europe_LNBA or England_ancient; that can't be a coincidence. They're basically the Minoans with some steppe admixture from the looks of it.
    Also, not that this is immediately relevant—but aren't the Minoans and Mycenaean samples here layered right over contemporary Western Jews?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    From the supplementary info:


    Individual Population Haplogroup
    I2495 Anatolia_BA J1a(xJ1a2b)
    I0070 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1d
    I0073 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)
    I9130 Minoan_Odigitria G2a2b2a(xG2a2b2a1b1a2a, G2a2b2a1c1a)
    I9041 Mycenaean J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)
    Yup a large male population turnover seems to have happened in the Near East, Anatolia and the Aegean during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age with haplogroup J Y-chromosomes replacing mainly G men that were there during the Neolithic.
    Y-DNA: J2a-Z2227

    mtDNA: U5b2c2

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    We only have 1 male sample from the Mycenaean period, and to no surprise it is the exact or near exact same signature from the previous Minoan period. If there was an intrusion of an EHG, minor or otherwise from the north, or north east, a single sample will not be representative. Sort of how a single male Anglo-Saxon burial of I1 in England is unlikely to represent the entire group.

    The only real deduction here is that YDNA J2a was probably a staple in the 2600-1100 BC period of the Minoans with overlap into other periods.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 08-02-2017 at 06:45 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: ? Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Yup a large male population turnover seems to have happened in the Near East, Anatolia and the Aegean during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age with haplogroup J Y-chromosomes replacing mainly G men that were there during the Neolithic.
    Parallel to J-men replacing E-men in the Levant (and possibly Arabia?).

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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wandering_amorite View Post
    Parallel to J-men replacing E-men in the Levant (and possibly Arabia?).
    Yes seems likely.
    Y-DNA: J2a-Z2227

    mtDNA: U5b2c2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Il PapÓ View Post
    The Cretan girl is from 1350 BCE so it should be during the Mycenaeans period, not the Minoan one. Notice the U5a mtdna .
    Later period, but Minoan.
    "Late Minoan III A-B ~ 1400-1200 BC"

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