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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Can you posit a scenario to account how Siberian PPIE moved to Anatolia ?
    Yes, but if we are talking about Pre-PIE (as in pre-4000 BC), that has nothing to do with the development of the IE Anatolian family. Makers of pressure blades moved into western Asia as well as Europe. I'm assuming that this explains R1b-V88 in the Neolithic. If they were speakers of Pre-PIE as I assume, that language would be soon lost as a handful of foragers were absorbed into farming communities. That would explain why R1b-V88 is correlated with Chadic.

    The only forager languages that survived (except where foraging continued into modern times) were those of foragers who invented farming, or who took it up by imitation in separate communities from the farmers that they imitated. This is the importance of Dnieper-Donets I and II. We see foragers turning into farmers. Obviously the language would change as it needed farming vocabulary.
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-13-2017 at 07:14 AM.

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  3. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    It isn't entirely outdated though, many of the things he writes about the end of the Bronze Age remain true to this day.
    So they would be found also in a more up-to-date book on the history/pre-history of Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Yes, but if we are talking about Pre-PIE (as in pre-4000 BC), that has nothing to do with the development of the IE Anatolian family. Makers of pressure blades moved into western Asia as well as Europe. I'm assuming that this explains R1b-V88 in the Neolithic. If they were speakers of Pre-PIE as I assume, that language would be soon lost as a handful of foragers were absorbed into farming communities. That would explain why R1b-V88 is correlated with Chadic.
    That theory- nice as it was- is no longer required
    We have L754 in palaeolithic Italy, and V88 in mesolithic Balkans. Neither of which have anything to do with microblades.
    Moreover the V88 in Chad is a founder effect from Southern Europe, not v/v.

    Anyhow my Q to Shaik was how he'd proposed Indo-Hittite got to Anatolia

    The only forager languages that survived were those of foragers who invented farming, or who took it up by imitation in separate communities from the farmers that they imitated. This is the importance of Dnieper-Donets I and II. We see foragers turning into farmers.
    Perhaps, but given that the genetic and archaeological data shows a complex set of interactions from the carpathians to the Caucasus, it seems speculative to me that we can claim to know that it was specifically the DD language which was championed as PPIE.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-13-2017 at 07:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Perhaps, but given that the genetic and archaeological data shows a complex set of interactions from the carpathians to the Caucasus, it seems speculative to me that we can claim to know that it was specifically the DD language which was championed as PPIE.
    PIE generated daughters both east and west which adopted farming terms from another languages, now lost. Said languages obviously must have been farming languages, spoken by farming cultures. One was pretty clearly that of the BMAC. The other is likely to be that of Cucuteni-Tripolye.

    David Anthony did not have this fully worked through in The Horse, The Wheel and Language. He explained the BMAC part, but he was under the impression that the nearest farming language to Pre-PIE speakers (Cris at the time) could be a member of the Afro-Asiatic family, which he thought would explain the adoption of the Semitic word for 'bull'. That does not add up, partly for chronological reasons.
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-13-2017 at 07:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    PIE generated daughters both east and west which adopted farming terms from another languages, now lost. Said languages obviously must have been farming languages, spoken by farming cultures. One was pretty clearly that of the BMAC. The other is likely to be that of Cucuteni-Tripolye.

    David Anthony did not have this fully worked through in The Horse, The Wheel and Language. He explained the BMAC part, but he was under the impression that the nearest farming language to Pre-PIE speakers (Cris at the time) could be a member of the Afro-Asiatic family, which he thought would explain the adoption of the Semitic word for 'bull'. That does not add up, partly for chronological reasons.
    Some of the ideas in that book are pure conjecture sprinkled with some wishful thinking, so he can "prove" that PIE originated in the Caspian steppe.
    Even Mallory pointed out that out
    And it seems Anthony is slowly modifying his views, and admits some of his views have simply not taken hold amongst academic circles.
    All that's left are the brave and loyal internet academics

    Anyhow, let's not make this thread about PIE again.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-13-2017 at 08:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Some of the ideas in that book are pure conjecture sprinkled with some wishful thinking
    As those who dated Anatolian split before 4000 BC, or linking IE to CHG. This a common feature about this subject, even today.

    I'm tempted to say "much ado about nothing". Few hard evidences and many suppositions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Some of the ideas in that book are pure conjecture sprinkled with some wishful thinking, so he can "prove" that PIE originated in the Caspian steppe.
    David Anthony is highly logical. He does not go in for wishful thinking. He makes a logical case in the 2007 book which works perfectly fine on its own. In fact Mallory made a logical case which worked perfectly fine on its own decades earlier. If one has a logical mind, then there is a metaphorical brain click as things fall into place. Naturally any such logical deduction is subject to modification if contrary evidence comes along. But in this particular case, the linguistic logic was so clear that I understood exactly why almost all IE linguists have been in the IE steppe homeland camp for decades, and I saw no prospect of evidence contrary to the IE steppe homeland ever coming along. So it was no surprise to me that the aDNA and archaeology has backed up the linguists.

    And it seems Anthony is slowly modifying his views, and admits some of his views have simply not taken hold amongst academic circles.
    Prof. Anthony has only modified his views to the extent of elaborating on them, or altering minor matters, such as the dating of Afanasievo, in line with more recent evidence. The review paper David W. Anthony and Don Ringe, The Indo-European Homeland from Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives, Annual Review of Linguistics 2015 marks no change whatever in the fundamentals. Nor does his work in collaboration with Prof. Reich.

    Nor do I get the impression that he is desperately concerned about the response to his work within the archaeological profession. He was a pioneer back in 1990 in aiming to bring migration back to the archaeological menu of explanation. The archaeological profession in general was not ready at the time to recognise the need for paradigm change. He has had to wait for decades to see the archaeological establishment catching up. That is the common fate of the exceptionally bright. But he has had the pleasure of being proved doubly right in his own lifetime. Could be worse!
    Last edited by Jean M; 08-13-2017 at 09:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    As those who dated Anatolian split before 4000 BC, or linking IE to CHG. This a common feature about this subject, even today.

    I'm tempted to say "much ado about nothing". Few hard evidences and many suppositions.
    The Shakespeare is cute but do you have any references to qualified linguists ?
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 08-13-2017 at 09:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    So they would be found also in a more up-to-date book on the history/pre-history of Greece.
    So, what recent book would you definitely recommend on the link between the Greeks and the Indo-European phenomenon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    So, what recent book would you definitely recommend on the link between the Greeks and the Indo-European phenomenon?
    E. J. Bakker (ed.), A Companion to the Greek Language (2010) gives the latest thinking on Greek and its relationship with PIE. I have quoted from it on this thread I think, to give the periodisation. I will quote again here:

    The Linguistic Periodization of Greek
    By looking at linguistic innovations among the IE languages, it is possible to recover facts about the historical development of the IE proto-language and to establish prehistoric subgroups among the individual languages. From research like this it is clear that Anatolian was the first branch to separate off from the IE speech community, followed by Tocharian, a development which left a core group of languages that underwent a series of common innovations. Within this core group, Greek is generally held to be closely related to Indo-Iranian, and further to share a number of characteristic phonological and morphological innovations with Armenian and Phrygian.

    The linguistic development of Greek, from late PIE up to the middle of the first millennium BCE, is conveniently arranged in the following four periods:

    • a) Late PIE/Pre-Proto-Greek. Fourth to third millennium BCE. This period includes the late PIE innovations that are common to Greek and Indo-Iranian, and further the phonological and morphological innovations that seem to characterize Greek, Armenian, and Phrygian. This last set of innovations probably took place in the third millennium once the ancestors (or, possibly, ancestor) of these languages were in the Balkans.
    • b) Proto-Greek. Late third millennium BCE. This stage of the language includes the changes which distinguish Greek from PIE and all other IE languages and which took place before Greek itself had started to differentiate dialectally. This phase probably coincides with the arrival of Greek speakers in Greece proper, likely dated c. 2300/2100 BCE.
    • c) Second Millennium Greek. This period corresponds to the development and floruit of Mycenaean civilization in Greece and Crete, c. 1400–1200. It is clear that by the early Mycenaean period Greek has already differentiated into three or four dialects. These dialects probably more or less coincide with what will become the main dialect groups of the first millennium: “Achaean” (Mycenaean, Cyprian, and Arcadian), Attic-Ionic (Attic and West, Central, and East Ionic), Aeolic (Lesbian, Thessalian, and Boeotian), and West Greek, which later differentiates into Northwest (Delphian, Elean, etc.) and West Greek proper (Laconian, Argolic, Cretan, etc.).

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