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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #721
    Registered Users

    Quote Originally Posted by X-ray View Post

    The Greek language evolved by itself in Greece and when the Minoan Greeks conqured Europe the Greek language was speared to other population centres and merged with the existing languages.
    I would not disagree that Minoan was some kind of a pre-Greek, but do you really think it was the Persians who took IE to India?
    As far as I know the Persians don't have any traditions of the Sapta Matrikas - Krittikas - which is one of the fundamental myths of India.
    These Krittikas are seven (or sometimes six*) in number and were responsible for nurturing Kumara or Skanda ** whose associated symbols are a spear and the rooster (a bird which went west from India) who the Greeks equate with Dionysus or Kuros (Velchanos). That they represent the seven nurturing streams*** of India which gave the country its name - India (derived of Sapta Sindhu or Hapta Hendu) is possible.



    "The Pleiades hold a prominent place as the mothers or wet nurses of the newborn infant in one of the most ancient and central Hindu myths, that of the birth of the war-god Rudra/Skanda ... *The Satapatha-Brahmana (2,1,2,4) states that the six Pleiades were separated from their husbands on account of their infidelity; other texts specify that only one of the seven wives, Arundhati, remained faithful and was allowed to stay with her husband: she is the small star Alcor in the Great Bear, pointed out as a paradigm of marital virtue to the bride in the Vedic marriage ceremonies."
    "Krittikâs. Originally, namely, the latter were the wives of the Bears (riksha); for the seven Rishis were in former times called the Rikshas (bears)."

    Eg. in name of Gupta emperors: Skandgupt, Kumargupt

    sindhu-a-bhih saptamatr-a-bhih (seven mothers)
    "with the Seven Mother Streams"
    The Rig Veda Book 1

    With the Saraswati disappearing - perhaps the seven mothers became six.
    Last edited by parasar; 08-17-2017 at 12:06 AM. Reason: typo

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  3. #722
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    Serbia Montenegro Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatia Split-Dalmatia
    So I drew a language tree based on your writing. Seems legit.


    Quote Originally Posted by X-ray View Post
    7000 probably a single language was spoken in Greece, Balkans, Anatolia, let's call it Greco-Anatolian which was very similar to proto Greek. The steppe invaders lost their non IE language and what was left was merged with that common language and proto-Greek was born. The impact of the Steppe peopl's language on the rest of Anatolia was almost non existant so their language differianted from Greek. It is then we have the split of Greek and Anatolian languages.
    It is very likely that a Greco-Anatolian language was spoken throughout Balkans, Greece, Anatolia and Syro-Palestine which was very similar to proto Greek. Then some Steppe people arrived in Greece speaking a NON-IE language, and they contribute with some words to that Greco-Hittite or Greco-Anatolian IE language and thus Greek was born.
    What the facts indicate is that the Ursula Greeks has spread to all parts of Europe and the Middles East at the specific time that the so-called "Proto-Afro-Eurasian" language is supposed to have evolved. PAE the ancestor of all European and Afro-Asiatic languages must therefore have evolved from GREEK.
    Greek is the parent language of PIE and it evolved in the Aegean.
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    Last edited by Pribislav; 08-16-2017 at 08:05 PM.

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  5. #723
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    R1b-DF27 FGC17112

    LMFAO! This about sums it up...

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  7. #724
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    Gonur Tepe

    Quote Originally Posted by X-ray View Post
    Of course the Greek language evolved in Greece. Do you think the people in Greece were moot?

    50,000 years ago the first Homo-Sapiens came to Europe and settle in Northern Greece (Hellads). 20,000 years ago a branch of these occpied the Iberian Alps (Iberians) and 10,000 years ago a different branch occupied Phoenicia/Syria-Palestine.

    The Germanic and Slavic branch of the Europeans was completely isolated from the Mediterranean branch LONG before the end of the last Ice age since there is no Phoenician component in their DNA which is present in all other Europeans.

    All Europeans have 7 female ancestors and 10 male ancestors who migrated around Europe over a period of 50,000 years. The thing that characterises European races is the percentage ratio of the DNA mutations in their populations. These races are all descended from various combinations of 7 founding mothers and 10 founding fathers.

    If their language came from a single common ancestor then this would have been URSULA since only her marker is present in ALL European DNA. That means that the common language was already spoken 50,000 years ago by the Ursula's living in Greece. Ursula's cannot have remained completely mute and without a language for 38,000 years. The Greek language definitely evolved in Greece.

    Ursula is the oldest in Europe:

    Only the Founding Mothers would have been able to communicate language to their of spring. Any population of Male raiders would have not passed on its language to its decedents (because they would have been out on the hunt or a war during their children's childhood) unless it brought its own women.

    The first male linage that reached Greece, specifically Macedonia was J2, 50,000 years ago which was the male analogue of the female linage Ursula that was also in Macedonia at this time. The other female linages did not come to Europe until 25,000 years ago so Greece would have been composed of an ethnically homogeneous tribe.

    Jasmine first came to Cyprus and Crete. The archaeology showing traces of civilisation and farming in these places goes back 10,000 years and is older than the Greek mainland.

    Jasmine came to Greek 10,000 years ago, but a Ursula also went to Palestine at around the same time. After all two way trading links were established so that would be expected. The SECOND most predominant DNA marker in Phoenician populations in the Ursula marker.

    What the facts indicate is that the Ursula Greeks has spread to all parts of Europe and the Middles East at the specific time that the so-called "Proto-Afro-Eurasian" language is supposed to have evolved. PAE the ancestor of all European and Afro-Asiatic languages must therefore have evolved from GREEK.

    The DNA shows that although originally all Ursula and then Ursula-Jasmine, the population of Greece then becomes dominated by the Helena's.

    The Ancient Greeks were made up of 3 main DNA linages. The Ursula linage came to Macedonia 50,000 years ago.

    The Mycenaean's were R1b hunter gather invaders that came to the Balkans in 5000 BC from Iberia and merged with the indigenous J2 and EV13 agricultural lineages.

    Each of the mt linages is associated with a respective y linage. Either we believe the ridicules idea that the R1b's wiped out all the Helena men so that not even one single specimen survived to procreate and bear male offspring or we accept that the Helena men were R1b's.

    M89 is far older and evolved in northern Syria and Anatolia 50,000 years ago while R1b evolved in ASIA 30,000 years ago via M9 and M145 and only entered Europe 17,000 years ago only after R1b has split off and remained in Asia. J2 evolved directly form M89 and was in Greece thousands of years before R1 reached Europe and many thousands of years before R1 reached the Balkans.

    If the Germanics and Slavs were living in the Black Sea region at the same time as the Mediterranean populations in 3000 BC ie. after the last ice age as the discredited and defunct Proto-Indo-European theory relies up then WOMEN would have needed to be living there also and thus the matriarchal line of Germanics and Slavs would show the presence of the Phoenician DNA that these populations picked up in 8000 BC. THERE IS NO TRACE of Phoenician DNA in Germanics and Slavs which implies that they were completely ISOLATED from the Mediterranean Populations long before the last Ice Age.

    The data for the Mediterranean shows Jasmine Females marrying Hellena and Ursula males. If the Heleana and Ursula population were living together with the Germanic and Slavic populations in 3000 BC the Jasmine component would be present in almost all Germanics and Slavs. It is extremely unlikely that an all male Mediterranean population migrated to the Black sea, mixed with the Germanic and Slavs and then came back. Not only that but it is completely impossible for any Germanic or Slavic females to have settled in the Mediterranean until 600 AD since there is no Germanic or Slavic component in Sicilian DNA which derives form the Greek colonists of Southern Italy that dominated the area from 1800 to 200 BC. It does not.

    The Ursula and the other mutations probably occurred in Cyprus and Palestine. The Ursula's left for Greece and everyone else moved into the caucuses and mutated some more. I should have stated that is was Homo-Sapiens-Sapiens Europus I was referring to.

    Velda, Tara, and Katrine were daughters of Homo-Sapiens-Sapiens Europus. Some Ursula's migrated north and met up with the Velda's, Tara's, and Katrine's and combined with them, but not many.

    In 6000-5000 BC near the end of last Ice age the Hellads en-mass conquered Syria-Palestine. The Hellads were already there first, 30,000 years earlier than anyone else.

    The DNA profile shows more Ursula's in the middle east than in Greece yet they originated in Greece. They must have been expelled.

    What we need is a coloration with archeology and historical accounts. The account of Solon/Plato calls the Equatai (Atlantians) Barbarians. Herodotus tells us that even the Ionians were considered Barbarians.

    Taken in correct context this means that the Ionians and Equatai were not considered to be Achaeans.
    The Biblical account places Ion as father of Hellene and of the Rhodians, Thracians and Cretans/Cypriots . The Greek account makes Ion Hellenes Grandson and also mentions an Io (Ioun) who was the ancestor of Cadmus and Europe. This means that the were many Ursula related migrations occurring at different times.

    Greece had a comply different climate and a rich soil in 1800 BC before the Thera eruption and this is also recorded by Solon/Plato. The Archaeology shows evidence of a migration in 2200 BC and a second wave in 1800.

    The DNA shows that although the population of Greece was all Ursula and then Ursula-Jasmine, the population becomes dominated by Helena's.

    Between 1800 and 1650 the Achaeans conqured the Ionians also known as Equatai in Mycenaean Greek or Ekwash in Hittite and force them out of Europe. They fled to Egypt and were known there as the Hyksos.

    The Achaeans were stronger than the Equatai, but the Equatai were stronger than the Egyptians. They had Chariot Warfare and trained Horses. The Egyptians did not.
    Your forgetting Becki and Amber lol

  8. #725
    Registered Users

    Quote Originally Posted by X-ray View Post
    The Phaistos disc has been proven to be a funeral record of the burial of a proto-Ionian king called Arion.

    Jean Faucounau, considers the Phaistos script as the original invention of a Cycladic and maritime Aegean people, the proto-Ionians. He interprets the text as "proto-Ionic" Greek in syllabic writing.

    And there are mentioned the names of Gods such as Zeus. The historical kings of the Minoans, became the Gods of Myceanean Greeks and Romans.

    The following paragraph from BBC article is worth reading:

    “But the much more minor influx of Steppe people into Greece compared with northern Europe has led some to conclude that this migration could not have effected a change in language. This might imply that progenitors of Greek - and perhaps other Indo-European languages - were already established in the Aegean by the time the Steppe people arrived.”
    Indo-European or not?

    Jean-Henriet Faucounau


    Critique of Decipherments by Hubert La Marle and Kjell Aartun
    "Hubert La Marle's presumed decipherment of Linear A as Indo-Iranian / Sanskrit"

    Also can someone explain the peacock plumes circa 1550BC in Crete?
    "a crown of lilies and peacock feathers. He is thought to represent the Priest King of Knossos"

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  10. #726
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    David Anthony on the Mycenaeans:

    Luckily we have well-dated inscriptions in two other Indo-European languages from the same era as the Hittite empire. The first was Greek, the language of the palace-centered Bronze Age warrior kings who ruled at Mycenae, Pylos, and other strongholds in Greece beginning about 1650 BCE. The Mycenaean civilization appeared rather suddenly with the construction of the spectacular Shaft Graves of Mycenae, dated about 1650 BCE, about the same time as the rise of the Hittite empire in Anatolia. The Shaft Graves, with their golden death masks, swords, spears, and images of men in chariots, signified the elevation of a new Greek-speaking dynasty of unprecedented wealth whose economic power depended on long-distance sea trade. The Mycenaean kingdoms were destroyed during the same period of unrest and pillage that brought down the Hittite empire about 1150 BCE. Mycenaean Greek, the language of palace administration as recorded in the Linear B tablets, was clearly Greek, not Proto-Greek, by 1450 BCE, the date of the oldest preserved inscriptions. The people who spoke it were the models for Nestor and Agamemnon, whose deeds, dimly remembered and elevated to epic, were celebrated centuries later by Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey. We do not know when Greek speakers appeared in Greece, but it happened no later than 1650 BCE. As with Anatolian, there are numerous indications that MycenaeanGreek was an intrusive language in a land where non-Greek languages had been spoken before the Mycenaean age.
    pages 48 and 49

    A number of artifact types and customs connect the Mycenaean Shaft Grave princes, the first definite Greek speakers at about 1650 BCE, with steppe or southeastern European cultures. These parallels included specific types of cheekpieces for chariot horses, specific types of socketed spearheads, and even the custom of making masks for the dead, which was common on the Ingul River during the late Catacomb culture, between about 2500 and 2000 BCE. It is very difficult, however, to define the specific source of the migration stream that brought the Shaft Grave princes into Greece. The people who imported Greek or Proto-Greek to Greece might have moved several times, perhaps by sea, from the western Pontic steppes to southeastern Europe to western Anatolia to Greece, making their trail hard to find.
    page 369

    From "The Horse, the Wheel and Languages"
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 08-17-2017 at 03:16 PM.

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  12. #727
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    Which is older Linear A or Linear B?
    The Aghios Vassileios Linear B could be older or at least contemporary with the oldest Linear A.

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