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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

  1. #381
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    How are these nmonte results being made? Are gedmatch kits for these samples available?

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  3. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vadim Verenich View Post
    It is sad to see this thread boiling with anger and hatred. I can only imagine what would happen when Indian aDNA paper will finally get published.
    Anger yes but hatred is an exaggeration. The R1 haplomaniacs and Indoeuropean fanatics are really attracted to the kurgan hypothesis which in my opinion is a rather short-sighted oversimplistic theory, they think the idea is very sexy and they're just really passionate about it, that's all. And let them be, I think it's entertaining. If we all just agreed on everything even when logic suggests that we do, maybe it would be kinda boring.

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  5. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacing View Post
    Anger yes but hatred is an exaggeration. The R1 haplomaniacs and Indoeuropean fanatics are really attracted to the kurgan hypothesis which in my opinion is a rather short-sighted oversimplistic theory, they think the idea is very sexy and they're just really passionate about it, that's all. And let them be, I think it's entertaining. If we all just agreed on everything even when logic suggests that we do, maybe it would be kinda boring.
    That's not correct. The overwhelming preponderance of the evidence supports the Kurgan Hypothesis, and ancient dna results thus far connect R1 with it.

    It does not matter what one likes or thinks is "sexy".

    The wish becoming father to the thought is evident in taking one single J2a Mycenaean result, the y-dna haplogroup of most of the non-IE Minoan samples, as well, and using it to dismiss the ponderous bulk of the evidence of the steppe origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans and their connection to y-dna haplogroup R1.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-04-2017 at 08:30 PM.
     


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FT37605> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

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    Red Hair Carrier:
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  7. #384
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    Why are some making this complicated. It seems pretty simple to me. The minoans were Neo+a heavy input from southerly points east (Caucasus/Iran/Anatolia). The Mycenians were a modest elite input from points north who carried steppe genes.

    As a late period arrival c 1500BC over 1000 years after the end of Yamnaya there is a good chance that steppe genes were already heavily diluted in the Balkans area long before arrival in Greece . Alternatively they were a fresh wave from the steppes itself but came in modest numbers as an elite.

    None of that is surprising. I don't think anyone sane thought the Greeks were a mass invasion of steppes people who replaced the locals

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  9. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Mycenaean thrown in with Minoans and some Yamnaya, Corded-Ware, Srubnaya and Sintashta:


    [1] "distance%=1.0468 / distance=0.010468"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0070 80.55
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia:RISE240 16.50
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9127 2.95
    Corded_Ware_Estonia:RISE00 0.00
    Corded_Ware_Germany:I0049 0.00
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0231 0.00
    Sintashta:RISE386 0.00
    Srubnaya:I0232 0.00

    This is a poor fit but it's still clear that the model feels the need to introduce steppe type admixture rather than making them look entirely Minoan-like. Here's the datasheet; can anyone think of better groups to use alongside the Minoans here for a better fit?
    Try replacing Yamnaya with afanasevo and andronovo. Also try replacing all steppe groups with Armenia EBA/MLBA + Armenia CHL and see what happens. Anatolia BA might also produce interesting results.

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  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    • Andreu, S. 2010. The Northern Aegean, in The Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age Aegean, E. H. Cline (ed.), 643-659. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press.
    • Coleman, J. E. 2000. An archaeological scenario for the coming of the Greeks ca. 3200 B.C., The Journal of Indo-European Studies, 28, 101-153. https://www.academia.edu/4908240/An_...s_ca._3200_B.C
    • Koukouli-Chrysanthaki, Ch. and Papadopoulos, S. 2009. The Island of Thassos and the Aegean in the prehistory, Asmosia VII: Proceedings of the 7th International Conference of Association for the Study of Marble and Other Stones in Antiquity, Thassos, September 15-20, 2003, Bulletin de Correspondance Hellénique Supplément 51. https://www.academia.edu/24939462/Th...The_Prehistory
    • Maniatis, Y. 2011. 14C dating of a Final Neolithic-Early Bronze Age transition period settlement at Aghios Ioannis on Thassos (North Aegean), Radiocarbon, 53 (1), 21–37. https://www.academia.edu/24925758/RA...S_NORTH_AEGEAN
    • Manzura, I. 2005b. The proto-Bronze Age cemetery at Durankulak: a look from the East, in Prehistoric Archaeology and Theorical Anthropology and Education, L. Nikolova, J. Fritz and J. Higgins (eds.), Reports of Prehistoric Research Projects 6-7), 51-55. Salt Lake City and Karlovo. https://www.academia.edu/24925758/RA...S_NORTH_AEGEAN
    • Sherratt, A. 1986. Two new finds of wooden wheels from later Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Europe, Oxford Journal of Archaeology, 5 (2), 243–248. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...tb00356.x/full
    Thank you very much Jean.

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  13. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Fingers crossed Vadim!
    I'm expecting to see Reich's team find R1a1-Z93 in Swat. If that does not happen, we go back to the drawing boards again. It's just a hobby after all for most of us.
    Have you seen the section of the tree with these mixed remote samples Pathans[sk-2087]-Greeks on a remote Island[KMS-67*]-ancient Sarmatians[KMS-88-y23099-KMS-75]- and a Hindu/Punjabi[R-Y14415Y14416 * Y14415 * Y14421+Y14423]
    http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M26...05_30_2017.pdf
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

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  15. #388
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    I uploaded three genomes to Gedmatch. Later will be more.

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    M740087 I2499 - Anatolia_BA

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    Quote Originally Posted by jesus View Post
    Try replacing Yamnaya with afanasevo and andronovo.
    Alright. I made the silly mistake of just randomly choosing one Minoan_Odigitria sample and one Minoan_Lasithi sample last time but this time I'll be throwing all of them in along with all the samples for the groups you've suggested to get the best possible fits but to save space I'll only share the samples nMonte ultimately showed percentages for and not the ones you just get a "0" value for:

    Afanasievo:

    [1] "distance%=0.3896 / distance=0.003896"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 82.80
    Afanasievo:RISE510 12.95
    Minoan_Lasithi:I9005 3.80
    Afanasievo:RISE507.508.merge 0.45

    Andronovo:

    [1] "distance%=0.5355 / distance=0.005355"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 85.0
    Andronovo:RISE503 8.7
    Andronovo:RISE512 6.3

    Redone with all Yamnaya samples:

    [1] "distance%=0.3754 / distance=0.003754"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 79.7
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia:RISE552 13.3
    Minoan_Lasithi:I9005 7.0

    Well, damn. They're all actually pretty decent fits with the Yamnaya_Kalmykia sticking as the best one. Seems my silly mistake was a serious one. This Mycenaean roughly looks like a 10-15% steppe admixed Minoan here, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus
    Also try replacing all steppe groups with Armenia EBA/MLBA + Armenia CHL and see what happens.
    Armenia_EBA:

    [1] "distance%=1.0168 / distance=0.010168"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I9005 56.2
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 27.5
    Armenia_EBA:I1633 16.3

    Armenia_MLBA:

    [1] "distance%=0.6543 / distance=0.006543"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I9005 40.50
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 37.10
    Armenia_MLBA:RISE423 14.45
    Armenia_MLBA:RISE407 7.95

    Armenia_Chl+Armenia_EBA+Armenia_MLBA:

    [1] "distance%=0.6395 / distance=0.006395"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I9005 42.1
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 31.9
    Armenia_ChL:I1634 14.8
    Armenia_MLBA:RISE423 9.4
    Armenia_MLBA:RISE407 1.9

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus
    Anatolia BA might also produce interesting results.
    You want me to throw them in with Minoans like the above runs or do you have any ideas for what other samples to throw in alongside them? At any rate, I tried this for now:

    [1] "distance%=1.1479 / distance=0.011479"

    Mycenaean:I9006

    Minoan_Lasithi:I9005 43.90
    Anatolia_BA:I2683 36.45
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074 16.60
    Anatolia_BA:I2499 3.05
    Last edited by Awale; 08-04-2017 at 10:19 PM.

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  19. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Why are some making this complicated. It seems pretty simple to me. The minoans were Neo+a heavy input from southerly points east (Caucasus/Iran/Anatolia). The Mycenians were a modest elite input from points north who carried steppe genes.

    As a late period arrival c 1500BC over 1000 years after the end of Yamnaya there is a good chance that steppe genes were already heavily diluted in the Balkans area long before arrival in Greece . Alternatively they were a fresh wave from the steppes itself but came in modest numbers as an elite.

    None of that is surprising. I don't think anyone sane thought the Greeks were a mass invasion of steppes people who replaced the locals
    Why didn't those "elites" create a great civilization in their steppe homeland? Somehow they just couldn't pull it off there? So they decide to invade in very small numbers, subjugated everyone and added some minimal genetic input 4-15% and showed the locals how to be a more advanced civilization.
    Yeah that does make a lot of sense.

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