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Thread: The Frisians

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    Thanks for that, I looked it up. Believe it or not my ancestors lived within 10 miles of Kenchester mentioned in the link below.

    The odd thing at the moment is that we seem concentrated in a fairly small geographical region, I was half- expecting a trail leading across Central and Eastern England (it may yet appear).
    I suppose the problem is relatively few British test results and quite a few of my American matches don't know what their origins in the UK were. The mix of English and Welsh surnames (Welsh apparently Herefordshire and English Gloucestershire) and there being quite a few of them makes it difficult to work out where the origins might have been and when. We seem to have both from about 1300 on. I'm wondering whether that estimated SNP date is later than it actually is. John
    Interesting! Perhaps there is something here.

    I know what you mean, as someone who lives on the other side of the pond it has been a hassle to find out exactly where in Scotland my paternal ancestor was born, or who his parents were. There was a bothersome amount of men born around the same time all with the same names. Combine that with the lack of any family memory of where they came from and you have a recipe for Y-DNA tests that just state "England" or "Scotland" with no specificity.

    I'm not all that well read on the history of Herefordshire and Gloucestershire, though I would keep my eye out for almost anything that could have led to your Y-line in Wales. I guess anything is possible!

    EDIT: An addition to the Hwicce and Magonsæte are the Wreocensæte, who also lived along the Welsh border.
    Last edited by spruithean; 09-13-2017 at 10:06 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-Z140 [Big Y: PENDING] (Scotland)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2 (Ireland), R-L21 x2 (Ireland & Scotland), I-M223 (Ireland), R-S1141 (Scotland), R-U198 & R-U106 (Netherlands), mtHg J1c3 (Ireland)
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Interesting! Perhaps there is something here.

    I know what you mean, as someone who lives on the other side of the pond it has been a hassle to find out exactly where in Scotland my paternal ancestor was born, or who his parents were. There was a bothersome amount of men born around the same time all with the same names. Combine that with the lack of any family memory of where they came from and you have a recipe for Y-DNA tests that just state "England" or "Scotland" with no specificity.

    I'm not all that well read on the history of Herefordshire and Gloucestershire, though I would keep my eye out for almost anything that could have led to your Y-line in Wales. I guess anything is possible!

    EDIT: An addition to the Hwicce and Magonsæte are the Wreocensæte, who also lived along the Welsh border.


    Around Shropshire a little further North.
    The Cecils don't appear to have been an old Noble family. There is a theory which I think is probable that they rose to prominence because one of their number David Cecil fought for Henry Tudor at Bosworth. This is mentioned in "The History of Parliament". So does this support some sort of "Welsh" family connection, I really don't know.
    So I don't stray too far from the thread it's vaguely possible that there is a Y connection around the Netherlands with someone who claims early descent from a "De Friese" (possibly suggesting Frisian origins, although there could be another explanation for the surname I understand) but that's a very tenuous connection and so long ago as to be not worth following-up. John
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 09-14-2017 at 07:46 AM. Reason: afterthought

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  5. #63
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    @floucart fascinating story! For the Northern Netherlands my picture isn't very clear yet. Only fragments. I guess it's all a part of the Saxons became a "great tribe", very expansive. They usurped the Chaucii (also known to be active around the Channel) form nowadays Weser-Ems territory. In the early middle ages coastal Friesland and Groningen en mixed with the residu population. So the "new frisians" were for most or at least a big part "saxons". The first one who mentioned that in the Netherland professor Boeles (in the first part of the twentieth century) was (metaphorical) keelhauled by some patriotic Frisians...Nowadays it's more accepted. In the inland parts of the Northern Netherlands the influence of the Saxons was also big, see for example the dress of the princes of Zweelo, typically Saxon:
    http://www.provincie.drenthe.nl/publ...vanzweeloo.png If I am well she was buried with her horses also a Saxon heritage.
    My question did Saxon behave like some kind of aristocracy? Was did they do with the old inhabitants? Did the indigenous population become serf or did they fuse?
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  7. #64
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    @Finn etc. do you know this chart from a research 2013?

    They call the components quite recent. If so, I would call the pink component "Frankish". The other ones I am not sure about; the orange component may be a substrate component, I think (original Frisians?) and the yellow component Saxon (with later Frisian).

    Last edited by Pylsteen; 09-14-2017 at 07:54 PM.
    Ancestry (approx.):
    3/4 Dutch; 1/8 German+Belgian+French+English+Swiss; 1/16 Indonesian+Dutch Colonial; 3/64 Ashkenazi; 1/64 Sephardi.

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  9. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    @floucart fascinating story! For the Northern Netherlands my picture isn't very clear yet. Only fragments. I guess it's all a part of the Saxons became a "great tribe", very expansive. They usurped the Chaucii (also known to be active around the Channel) form nowadays Weser-Ems territory. In the early middle ages coastal Friesland and Groningen en mixed with the residu population. So the "new frisians" were for most or at least a big part "saxons". The first one who mentioned that in the Netherland professor Boeles (in the first part of the twentieth century) was (metaphorical) keelhauled by some patriotic Frisians...Nowadays it's more accepted. In the inland parts of the Northern Netherlands the influence of the Saxons was also big, see for example the dress of the princes of Zweelo, typically Saxon:
    http://www.provincie.drenthe.nl/publ...vanzweeloo.png If I am well she was buried with her horses also a Saxon heritage.
    My question did Saxon behave like some kind of aristocracy? Was did they do with the old inhabitants? Did the indigenous population become serf or did they fuse?
    Is there a strong Frisian identity in Dutch Friesland, and how does all that relate to the other Dutch?

    Long ago I was on a military exchange program with the Bundeswehr in Hamburg (at the university there) and Ostfriesland (the German part of Frisia) was often the butt of jokes, they were held to be backwards, etc. Sort of like West Virginia jokes here in the US, I suppose.

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  11. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kostoffj View Post
    Is there a strong Frisian identity in Dutch Friesland, and how does all that relate to the other Dutch?

    Long ago I was on a military exchange program with the Bundeswehr in Hamburg (at the university there) and Ostfriesland (the German part of Frisia) was often the butt of jokes, they were held to be backwards, etc. Sort of like West Virginia jokes here in the US, I suppose.
    My maternal grandmother was from Groningen province next to Dutch Friesland, she had said there was a Frisian identity but there was also seemingly by her description - a non-Frisian identity especially in her home province. I imagine this Frisian and Gronings identities trace back to the disputes of the Vetkopers and Schieringers? These things may have changed since she left the Netherlands.
    Last edited by spruithean; 09-14-2017 at 08:56 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-Z140 [Big Y: PENDING] (Scotland)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2 (Ireland), R-L21 x2 (Ireland & Scotland), I-M223 (Ireland), R-S1141 (Scotland), R-U198 & R-U106 (Netherlands), mtHg J1c3 (Ireland)
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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  13. #67
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    Yes there is a strong Frisian identity. Most virulent in the nineteenth century and beyond. The province of Friesland was in the nineteenth century in some sort of decline. That enhanced the provincial pride....
    Groningen and Friesland have a kind of "love and hate relationship" Groningen is close to East-Friesland in language (Platt). Yes the Germans make jokes about the East-Frisians, partly because e of East-Frisian isn't understood by the rest of Germany. Until the nineteenth century they preached in Dutch in some East Frisian churches. This is an example of Rheiderland platt, on the Groningen-East-Friesland border. My grandfather (Groningen) spook that kind dialect of too....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-INJBkGsfDY
    Last edited by Finn; 09-15-2017 at 06:39 AM.
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  15. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    My maternal grandmother was from Groningen province next to Dutch Friesland, she had said there was a Frisian identity but there was also seemingly by her description - a non-Frisian identity especially in her home province. I imagine this Frisian and Gronings identities trace back to the disputes of the Vetkopers and Schieringers? These things may have changed since she left the Netherlands.
    In the past most of Groningen was Frisian too. Until the middle ages the lower parts of Groningen spoke and wrote Frisian. The city of Groningen became part of the Hanse League. They were more Eastwards orientated than the Frisians. Nowadays we speak a Lower Saxon dialect with a Frisian substrate.
    The city of Groningen was always a kind of city state, most times prosperous.....the Frisians were always apprehensive for the power of this city state. But I don't know if I am fully objective
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  17. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    @Finn etc. do you know this chart from a research 2013?

    They call the components quite recent. If so, I would call the pink component "Frankish". The other ones I am not sure about; the orange component may be a substrate component, I think (original Frisians?) and the yellow component Saxon (with later Frisian).

    Thanks!!! I remember it vague....do you know the source?
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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  19. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    In the past most of Groningen was Frisian too. Until the middle ages the lower parts of Groningen spoke and wrote Frisian. The city of Groningen became part of the Hanse League. They were more Eastwards orientated than the Frisians. Nowadays we speak a Lower Saxon dialect with a Frisian substrate.
    The city of Groningen was always a kind of city state, most times prosperous.....the Frisians were always apprehensive for the power of this city state. But I don't know if I am fully objective
    I had forgotten about the Hanseatic league! In regards to the Frisian presence in Groningen much of my maternal grandmother's family tree is filled with Frisian surnames, many of which have their roots in the coastal areas along the north sea. Her ancestors only migrated toward the villages outside of Groningen (city) fairly late in history.

    Pylsteen, that is an interesting breakdown of the differences within the Netherlands. It would sure be interesting to see how my grandparents fit in with those considering one was from Zuid-Holland and the other Groningen.

    As a random note, on the various gedmatch calculators I always seem to get weird oracle results that rarely include the Dutch population references. Perhaps my paternal side is scambling my Dutch ancestry!
    Y-DNA: I-Z140 [Big Y: PENDING] (Scotland)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
    Other lines:
    R-M222 x2 (Ireland), R-L21 x2 (Ireland & Scotland), I-M223 (Ireland), R-S1141 (Scotland), R-U198 & R-U106 (Netherlands), mtHg J1c3 (Ireland)
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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